DallasMakerspace - dms-politics

yashsedai 3/19/2020 11:06 PM

#1

mutes channel (edited)

1

-pith helmet required-

pith helmet ... I'm reminded of something a co-worker often says : *There's something about a top-break revolver that says I'm here to oppress you.* (edited)

LOLOL

okay so when does it start? I am ready

start with something appropriately DMS scandalous

something like "so whos in the crosshairs next"

perhaps summon the Draco

lolol

or volunteer someone to run the 10x10

so i propose that googolaire and bishop be in the crosshairs next

11:48 PM

QUICK! @Draco come to their defense

11:48 PM

community!

11:48 PM

clay poking metal!

11:48 PM

I CAN COUNT TO FIRETRUCK!

I’m so glad Cairenn doesn’t have discord.

oh lawdy

11:50 PM

that would be terribad

yeah.... how about we don't mention that to her

my clay brings all the metal poking things to the yard

There is the ignore feature here though.

damn right its pokier than y'alls (edited)

or how about who would be the most comical board to put together

lol

perhaps a most likely to annoy the membership category and a most likely to annoy each other category?/

haha that could go so many ways

hmmm.... brandon, allen, kevin, cairenn, russell?

Brandon and Allen would hurt their feelings until they quit.

11:58 PM

Especially Allen. Omg.

thats my annoy each other pick i think

brandon would get shit done

Yeah DMS would be cleaner than it’s ever been.

11:59 PM

And it would actually consistently have tools.

just whoever crossed my mind... i imagine there is a better pick

11:59 PM

better annoy each other pick

That was pretty magical.

I think if Brandon got on the board, that DMS would be clean very clean and there might need to be a new dumpster or two installed lol

Talk drama is quiet most of the evening. It’s usually during the day that it pops off.

Well then I guess it is lucky I don't see it

12:13 AM

else I might be tempted

12:13 AM

lol

It’s mostly just hissy fits over DMS closing lately.

I think it was the right thing to do under the circumstances

just some entitled guy who had business plans the revolved around the dms staying open

My favorite part is that he wanted to use the internet there.

https://www.politico.com/states/california/story/2020/03/19/newsom-orders-all-40m-californians-to-stay-home-in-nations-strictest-state-lockdown-1268248 not DMS politics, but craziness nonetheless

Newsom orders all 40M Californians to stay home in nation's stricte...

“There’s a social contract here,” Newsom said. “People, I think, recognize the need to do more and meet his moment.”

DMS is like a homeless shelter without any of the rules.

2

Back to the crazy board member suggestions: I nominate the CeramiCAp dude.

9:52 AM

Max Kirkland would be interesting as well.

While we're at it Russellcrow for sure right?

1

For the upcoming board meeting we could make a room in discord that only lets users with certain roles talk

1

HAHA

I mean we have a text one like that now, but can do the same in voice

whelp, im muted!

Google Meet; can mute participants who are disruptive / until questions etc are ready

12:25 PM

raised hands via the chat etc

When the board meetings are streamed the audience is already muted

12:26 PM

I watch chat for questions

could have record attendance if people have nothing else to do

What Politics .. DMS ain't go no Politics .. everyone always agrees on everything!

2:19 PM

especially when locked in DMS

Help, I'm stuck in the janitors closet!

1

lol

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/3-22-20-pay-to-play-model-for-tool-training/70145/17

3:05 PM

here come the people who think they should be able to nickel and dime new members

lol

3:07 PM

but pearce, john gorman wants to charge for lasers

Kevin has a lot more time on his hands now without his stripper poles to work on

john should be able to make his money

3:07 PM

you know

Look Freddy that Miller High Life won’t pay for itself

like max paying his mortgage via 3d printers

seems like it would be a better deal for DMS in long run to offer 1 to $5,000 for someone to create and deploy online required training for tools

people should be able to profit from the non profit, you know because its theirs

removes the supply issue of no one offering training for $25

I'm in agreement brandon, but I think it can be had for free

seems like right now is a great time for people to work on online classes

3:09 PM

from kevins post

3:10 PM

the "drive away more teachers" is an issue created by the same group that thinks they will get banned for speaking up

I did the Multicam classes and checkout for a LONG time for free, but I also got burned the f*** out and therefore don't blame Chris too much for charging

thats why i suggested scheduling them and getting honorarium for it

3:12 PM

or we need a new way to do it. since clearly it burns people out

and to be clear, I got burned out longer ago than "last year"

right

3:15 PM

last year was blue flu

3:16 PM

because REEEE I CANT PAY MY RENT WITH THIS

But I wonder @Kentamanos would getting honorarium for it have helped you not get burnt out?

I don't think so, was just a lot of work (especially the checkout part).

Man, I kinda wanted to see what would happen if I started teaching those classes for free and crashing the market...

1

Go for it

Kevin's argument centers on the idea that 'if x doesn't teach it, no one will' which is just flat wrong

3:42 PM

If Chris is burnt out, new people can step in

Other part of formula is if members cant get training they quit quickly

I think a lot of people saw that some members were making rent by teaching and didn't want to "take food off their plate" by teaching and reducing their take

Yep, I'll admit I was hesistant to mess around with folks

I've had a half dozen people ask me about teaching laser, 3 of them specifically to undercut Gorman

1

That's pretty awesome

I can't wait to open back up and get them trained

3:44 PM

(trained in teaching the class)

I'm looking forward to it

Nice. Lol. I have seriously considered putting effort into learning certain machines just to teach for free.

@michaelb thats hilarious

I mean, Nick can make a living with a CNC, so he can get away with the whole 'pay me to teach you' line

3:52 PM

But ain't nobody around who thinks Gorman has $60/hour worth of laser experience. ($20/student, 5 students/class, 1.5 hours/class)

Except Gorman and maybe Holly.

There's a large swath if DMS for whom the presence or anmbsence of honorarium plays no major factor in their motivation to not teach

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: despite what some of us think, most of us are “nice people” who do not want to step on toes, or, less nicely considered, “horn in someone else’s territory”.

4:34 PM

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/new-pay-to-play-model/68319/98?u=jast

4:35 PM

teachers tend to fill perceived demand/shortfalls.

Good teachers should teach .. I promote good teachers

Omg trying to refrain from telling off CeramicCAP.

5:03 PM

Thanks Freddy. I can always count on you. Lol

lol

My argument was always that chairs teaching and regulars were scaring away new blood. I had several people tell me they offered to teach woodshop and were ignored. This is counter to what Mark was saying that they couldn't get teachers. Same with 3d fab. I was told by multiple people they felt like they weren't allowed to teach it. We want diversity in education, not monopolies.

1

chairs and regulars really SHOULD be working to recruit, train, and assist MOAR teachers...

5:56 PM

(says the guy who does jack shit on all those)

i could probably get cleared by my boss to teach classes for the polyprinters, i have no reason to think he would say otherwise. i just hate teaching to people who wont listen and are just there to get the certification

Diversity as long as they are a good teachers .. I think perhaps there needs to be a training period and a way to rate teachers .. then let them teach ,,, especially for safety courses

Paul was very open to having me help teach in woodshop, which made me happy.

paul is awesome i just wish this pandemic hadnt ruined his time to shine

1

I know. It's inconvenient in multiple ways

6:12 PM

Scary in others.

In response to a reporter asking Trump what he would say to people that are scared, “I say that you’re a terrible reporter, that’s what I say.”

dude that whole meeting was a clusterfuck

6:16 PM

and you can see how uncomfortable the doctor is that they are standing so close together

1

yup I thought about that .... I stopped watching the entire briefings .. I tend to go with local reporting rather than all that

6:18 PM

Trump had a good chance to try and at least find a way to comfort people but I don't think he has empaty

lol

6:18 PM

how would you know this?

6:19 PM

also, there are MANY MANY things he has done that show he has empathy....

1

6:19 PM

just not for stupid reporters

Oh no doubt he has done some good things

6:20 PM

I'm not a Trump basher

lol and yet ^^^

he just lost an opportunity by jumping on a reporter

complaining about the media won't get you far as a politician

however, it would be nice if covid-19 were more of a unifying thing than yet another thing to fight over

7:06 PM

regardless of its low lethality, this is going to do a number on the economy over a long period of time

@ESmith ... I agree ... I hope so too

the stimulus package I'm hearing about is ... weird. there's an uncanny valley. low and high ends see reduced benefit and no benefit respectively. on the high end, upper-end earners likely don't need the stimulus, but reducing the benefit to the lower end is baffling since they need it and will almost certainly spend it all relatively quickly, and velocity of money being what it is, is likely to greatly benefit the economy.

7:17 PM

however I gather much of this is on the Senate, which tinkered with the Bush administration's flat payments

so i read it as a tax rebate more that stimulus

there's a means test of sorts - I gather it's based on 2018 tax returns

and they appear to be trying to say that people who havent been paying taxes wouldnt be getting anything back

7:18 PM

which is why people on disability would only get $600 instead of $1200

yeah, total cutoff if you're at <$2500 or somesuch

the cut off is the same number as when you dont have to pay taxes or some such

7:19 PM

low end cut off*

Regarding teachers, it seems like the issue is that no one knows how to start teaching. Like I said before plenty of offers to teach laser and the leader is always 'hey how do I get approved to teach the lasers'

I've taught more than a dozen to teach lasers

I think we'd see more teachers if we just made it more obvious how to teach. Not that everyone will follow through but some will

And more for everything else.

8:26 PM

I've shared my curriculum for those classes too

8:27 PM

I even taught classes on how to teach at the MakerSpace

8:28 PM

Someone posted last week about teaching laser. I offered to mentor them. We even chatted offline about it.

8:28 PM

It's key to keep encouraging people to teach

It's good to get new people to teach, so when people get burnt out there are new teachers to replace them.

8:30 PM

Otherwise we get teachers who have been around for years and demand payment for the privilege of gracing us with their classes

Plus different people have different perspectives and experiences on how to do things. I would enroll or audit a lot of people on subjects I taught to learn from them

8:31 PM

Lol, "gracing us".

Right? I don't understand it. I would rather people stop teaching when they're burnt out. Take a break, maybe get back to making. But showing up to meetings and continuously arguing that they be paid because they've 'taught for so many years' is crazy.

8:34 PM

It's almost as if those people feel entitled to teach, and that the space has to change to accommodate what they want, which is just wrong.

4

@michaelb I think @john a gorman doesn't wanna comment on this. It might have hit too close to home....

1

tenure?

thats the one

Man someone needs to get ceramiccap posting in here.

lol no

9:25 PM

better watch out

9:25 PM

he will pm you and say weird stuff

Dude it’s kind of entertaining.

@yashsedai the assumptions are not correct. Debate won't fix that. Best source is talking to the members that take my classes. Usually, it's not just one. Often 3+, sometimes 10+. I build strong relationships with them.

Plus you can always put him on ignore.

and yet you feel entitled to fleece the new comers of their $20.00

Entitled?

yes entitled

Um it’s 19.99

also you felt entitled to teach people a machine that had no curriculum all in the name of profit?

9:30 PM

you are right @SewingStuff it was $19.99

Then what I suggest is building up teachers that are willing to take honorarium or do it for free. There is no limit on the number of instructors as far as I'm aware. If you get enough people teaching for free, people will not pay $19.99 .. this is better than debating or creating rules

9:31 PM

IMO

Can't say I learned anything when I took your laser class

^ that message gets sent to me by many people

But I’ve heard that paid teachers tend to chase off the ones who are willing to teach for free because they’re kind of territorial.

Then work on that problem @SewingStuff ... different issue

But I got added to the AD groups so that was that

draco, the new agenda item is to work on that

Also, just searching, I found out you can buy a whole CASE of Miller High Life for 17.48 around here, but they are sadly out of stock. So for a five person class, you could buy 90 bottles almost!

1

@SewingStuff they can be. Some of the paid laser teachers tell members that they can only be approved to teach by following their class and then having that teacher watch the members first class as well.

9:35 PM

Basically, they're implying that the only way to teach is to cooperate with them and do it their way. Which isn't true.

Then notify people of that .. show them the committee approved course outline .. have a teach the teacher class

That's exactly what happened, so I don't see your point? Just because a situation has been handled doesn't mean I can't complain about it.

9:39 PM

Good then it's settled

Is that ceramiccap guy even real? Has anyone actually met him?

yeah hes as insane in person

10:18 PM

but a little nicer

Agvet are you a veteran or veterinarian or both?

(not to answer for him, but he's revealed on Talk before that he's a veterinarian ; don't know about the veteran part)

Both would be cool!

10:36 PM

I’m an avid overuser of veterinary services. Like one of my dogs gets allergy drops and another has nightly blood pressure meds. Lol

If that is who i think it is in person hes quite awkward and a bit timid... but i may have him confused with someone else

@Draco as one of those teachers, some committees like woodshop have historically been hostile to us

10:51 PM

and to members that aren't part of their "special" woodworkers (yes, former chair called themselves a special group and the general members of DMS who need basic wood tool usage could fend for themselves)

10:52 PM

the coursework there is structured to deter teachers that aren't full on woodworking down to finishing detail, preventing a basics for things like members that just need to rip some boards for the lasers, miter some wood for a frame in the workshop, and drill some holes

@SewingStuff I'm a veterinarian, not a veteran. In person I started to make sure to say 'veterinarian' in response to people asking what I do because I've been thanked for my service more than once on accident.

Large animal vet?

10:57 PM

Or am I reading too much into the 'Ag' prefix

Or he is an Aggie.

Aggie indeed. Small animal vet. Was going to do large animal but the money's in small.

Always very impressed with veterinarians, so much more knowledge required vs. a doctor.

lol

2:06 PM

https://babylonbee.com/news/new-version-of-operation-just-has-players-use-essential-oils-instead-of-performing-a-medical-procedure

New Version Of 'Operation' Just Has Players Use Essential Oils Inst...

PAWTUCKET, RI—In a press release Friday, Hasbro announced a new version of classic board game Operation in which players use essential oils to treat serious medical conditions rather than taking the patient, Cavity Sam, into a hospital for expensive, invasive surgery.Much like...

They should have a modern laparoscopic version of Operation where you use a wire through a straw to pick up pieces.

Or a robotic version where you are in the next room.

... with multiple-choice lag on the response time

A few articles online talk about inconsistent lag in telesurgery but none of their experiments were detectable by surgeons.

5:43 PM

The FL to TX connection was 30-150ms and allegedly proved not a problem. I guess surgeons are just moving much slower than pro gamers.

geezis. I HOPE my surgeon is moving slower than ME playing a game (and I'm no gamer!)

@A. Spencer(jast) you sure you aren't a gamer? It's an excuse Jen used for you not being at the space more. PS 4 iirc

1

I'm certain I am not a gamer. I have the reaction times and eye-hand coordination of a fence post. I'm less sure if Jen told anyone that's why I wasn't at the space more...

Busted

Fence posts have a right to play too

6:58 PM

Wait, is that a thing?

oh sure. We can play. But we can't call ourselves "gamers".

I loved the Portal games and humorous games .. but then I found Minecraft .. they even have fence posts in the game!

7:01 PM

and you can make stuff

I lasted about an hour in Minecraft. Got pissed, walked away, deleted that crap and never been back. Buy my 8 year old nieces used to love it...

someone here could spin up a minecraft server

7:02 PM

skyfactory is a fun mod

I've never been online with minecraft .. just single player

or galacticraft

but sounds like an interesting idea

7:04 PM

I'm hoping to build my skills to the point that I can get on 2b2t

7:05 PM

and survive it

Skyfactory mod is fun but factorio is the endgame there. (edited)

Omg people on Talk lately about covid.

hmmm Freddy, Allen, ceramicCAP, Cairenn and Paul on the board ... hmm... run away

10:08 PM

((explosion)) (edited)

Which Paul?

Printmaking

10:11 PM

sorry

Freddy and Allen and Paul would be fine. They’re all pretty sensible.

I don't know ... Allen has some ideas that are rather controversial

10:12 PM

like making his DMS email public

10:12 PM

while being a board member

Allen is at least committed to transparency and he’s not an idiot. He and Freddy and Paul are all super competent.

Paul is solid but has a temper .. Freddy is very smart but also is highly opinionated

10:14 PM

Allen .. no one quite knows exactly what he is up to

10:14 PM

He is famous for his non-answers

10:17 PM

Are you going to run @SewingStuff ?

I’d rather pluck out my own eyeballs.

lol .. yeeeahh .. that seems to be a common theme unfortunately

10:19 PM

Well, at least we have an abundance of Patricks

I’m also generally working two jobs, both of which are highly stressful, so I have no tolerance for absurdity in my personal life.

nods .. understandable

10:19 PM

it is almost a full time job

10:20 PM

at times it is

10:22 PM

I hope at some point we can move to staggard 2 year terms of 9

10:22 PM

This way there is no past board

*Running for Board: not it*

Running from the board however...

But you’re missing out on such luminaries as ceramiccap and Russel Crowe!

I did that days ago, and I'm supposed to be one of the people stopping them from tearing each other apart...

its off topic

Lightly moderated, but still moderated.

Hey I wanted to start a new topic called crazypants rambling but I was told that may be incendiary

so now that there's a SIP order for Dallas county, will that stop the small handful of people complaining about DMS shutting down being "an overly broad reading of the law"?

6:05 PM

DMS for sure doesn't fall under the "essential business" category

Link to order?

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-county-to-give-update-on-covid-19-restrictions/2336502/

Claire Cardona

Watch Live: Shelter-in-Place Order Issued for Dallas County

Dallas County Judge Clay Jenkins on Sunday issued an order requiring residents to shelter in place. The order takes effect at 11:59 p.m. March 23 and continues until 11:59 p.m. April 3. The order states people may leave their residences only for essential activities — includin...

6:08 PM

it's at the bottom

Those two guys have stfu anyway.

I've got my eye on them now, and one of them was already given a warning and temp silence

Dude there were two pitching a fit and two posting all kinds of crazy talk. While I appreciate the distraction of having to hide their posts all damn day, I am glad they’ve cooled down.

Errr, why's my name coming up for Board? I ain't running.

Dude I wish you were. You’re competent and you won’t run the space into the ground which is more than I can say for several people running.

Yeah, but the temper thing is a valid observation

8:05 PM

Faaaar to many idiots to not have me snapping heads off left and right when I get pushed too far

Yeah but I’d rather have you freaking out than some of those fools calmly smirking. There are a few good candidates, thank goodness but several who are just awful.

Agreed

So maybe people are just engaging in wishful thinking.

#givepaulasword

Give Paul as word... Give Paula sword... Ohhhh give Paul a sword.

and my axe?

Hashtags are dumb as shit

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/ask-the-candidates-2020-edition/70267

Inb4 "will you bring back booze"

"what is your stance on stealing?"

"how many hours do I have to volunteer before I can take $100"

I just want to know if it's cumulative, or if there's a decay function

It's not comp score

How many board members do I need to sue to satisfy my ego and get revenge?

If I vote for you, can I also store my glowing stripper poles in committee areas or is that just for chairs?

8:52 PM

I know I’m not a member or anything but a constant shitposter, but how can you cater to my demographic?

1

aw man if there's a decay function then my balance is down to zero

that's my concern too, I wasted my opportunity to ~~steal~~borrow

8:57 PM

all I did was volunteer time and give money to DMS

8:57 PM

LIKE A SUCKER

I dunno. More board terms so you've got more credit to boil off.

I think I might still be the longest running board member

8:58 PM

need someone to break that record please

8:59 PM

oh wait, no

8:59 PM

Robert beat me!

8:59 PM

6 terms

aw snap

There's got to be a bonus multiplier for consistent meetings with legible minutes

I dunno man. I hear there's a trove of those things out there just waiting to be uncovered.

1

Minutes are for chumps when random sycophants have memories guys

just remember, before you ~~steal~~borrow money, you have to ensure that you gut the finance team entirely and then make up a bunch of bullshit as to why they were really bad people

inscribed on parchment with the finest calligraphy in crystal detail

maybe try to frame a guy too while you're at it

I also beat you in votes and then we nominated you president. Negating the assanine idea that the person with the most votes should be president

9:01 PM

I think people going with this idea got us in the most trouble (edited)

don't worry, dipshits will defend your action if you make them feel more important than they ever actually were

9:02 PM

lol so many people told me that they liked me on the board and had nothing against me, they just figured I'd win anyway so they voted for others

9:02 PM

wish more of them had done it

9:02 PM

lol

I wish you would run again

way too busy with work and other projects, even with the current situation

You know what that means.

9:06 PM

aww

Someone get Max to somehow affirm that SOI that he didn't post

I'd tag him but he can't figure out how to keep the same discord account so it would be useless

Oh geez.

https://youtu.be/Rj_-qaqQQc8

PortalFan150

H2G2: So Long and Thanks for All the Fish - Jazz version

just talked to him. yeah hes in it- he asked gorman to put it on there.

Maybe Gorman should run instead since he can actually use the wiki

I think we have some good options for board members. I was worried there wouldn't be

There are some awful options too.

12:21 AM

I’d rather give blood in the warehouse from Hostel than vote for some of those people.

"we must never fall to the level of disrespecting each others views, beliefs, opinions, and decisions" You shouldn't respect all decisions. It's how you express that lack of respect that I think Curtis Baker may have been referring to. Not all decisions, opinions, views, etc deserve my respect.

Exactly! I mean $my candidates$ are going to do great and I'm happy they're running. But $everyone else$ is just a shitshow waiting to happen.

That may be a matter of definitions though

12:26 AM

I think Jim is a good option. I was pleasantly surprised by Freddy's SOI, specifically his commitment to improving his communication.

while brash he has the spaces best interest at heart (edited)

Personally I can tolerate it pretty well, but I know other people can't, and as a board member you have to deal with all kinds of people, where deal with includes listening, bringing out the best in them, being diplomatic. There is a balance between being diplomatic and having good ideas win, though.

omg stop complementing me

1

1

You know the advantages some of the candidates have over others? Some of them have never been banned from DMS, stolen from DMS, used DMS committee areas for personal storage, and are functional adults.

i find the pool of candidates most interesting

most of them havent yelled at people for asking them to follow saftey protocol, threatened to ban people for asking them to act safely from a committee space they werent in (edited)

this just in... https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Mark_Havens_Statement_of_Intent_2020

Mark Havens Statement of Intent 2020

Yeah I know.

I saw his personal page and kept waiting for it

Yup same here.

So this will be the first election for which I'm eligible to vote. Does everyone just have to pick their top candidate and submit one vote? Doe we each get 5 votes?

up to 5 votes

1

What's Erik Smith's handle on here?

(that is to say you can vote for only 4 if you want)

12:44 AM

(or 3..or...you get it...hehe)

@ESmith

I think he’s asleep. He gets up at 5.

@ESmith Question #4

yes. "DMS politics are contentious as of late - how do you intend to work with those with whom you disagree?" I think dealing with the divide is going to be a great challenge or at least a great opportunity

I’m working late in the craft room so not sure. Lol

I think leadership needs to focus as much as possible on makery things and less on politics. I think the current board, especially I think James, have done that very well, especially considering everyone's urge to tie everything back to us vs them

..."as of late"?... Try always

I can imagine that hearing everyone talk about leadership drama may be offputting to new members

thats not the board members fault though

12:50 AM

they cant go to the space without getting ambushed and bombarded with stupid questions

I think it's often a useful strategy when you're negotiating with someone (e.g. over a policy decision), to try to agree to come down to what you can tolerate as opposed to what you really want

Not the best layout on the dense side, but can clearly see a pattern

2

1

2

12:59 AM

Thats a graph of those running and the people nominating them from SOI

1:00 AM

Would be completely separate if McCutheon hadn't nominated Patrick and Havens

can always count on brandon to make a graph

1:01 AM

nominations also are functionally useless

yeah just thought it was interesting how many were listed on some and wanted to see the connections

1:03 AM

The text that I pasted into https://csacademy.com/app/graph_editor/

dms_2020_SOI_nomination_edges.txt

2.57 KB

CS Academy

CSAcademy is a next generation educational platform. Discover computer science with interactive lessons and a seamless online code editor.

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Gorman was....generous....with nominations this year.

Why is Gorman in two places @AGr .. are there two of them?

1:05 AM

He is in the center of the group on the left .. and on the top of the group on the right

looks like one of his Gorman's has a space at the beginning

Might be others, was just pasting from wiki and not all names are normalized

1

somewhere he's pissed you didn't put it in all lowercase

LOL

@Kentamanos (edited)

Why does he do that anyway? e e cummings fan or something?

I have to assume I asked him at some point, but I don't remember if I did

Opinions on Curtis Baker?

1:14 AM

I can't put a face to his name but he's been a member since 2015

not familiar with him personally, but I don't visit DMS as often as I used to

I’ve heard positive things about him but I don’t know him.

@DJ Vance his SOI has a Linkedin page with a picture if it helps

The picture isn't loading for me, I think it may be private to connections only

Worked for me in incognito mode

1:20 AM

weird...maybe not

Who ever wins the 2020 board of elections... may whatever deity you believe in have mercy on you.

3

Hahaha burn him up Raffi

And I've spent a lot of time with him in Digital Media

Might be others, was just pasting from wiki and not all names are normalized

@AGr This is really interesting. Almost 2 separate groups save for 2 cross overs (so far)

I just know him as the dude who keeps trying to store stripper poles all over DMS without permission and the guy who is so into himself he keeps posting pictures and commenting on his own hair.

I did say there was another group ...

1:41 AM

I hope we can bring them together

Kevin and I used to be cool with each other. I overlooked his overbearing nature because it seemed like he was being proactive with Digital Media and he seemed to be getting a lot done in general. There's a specific instance where he argued against me vigorously without understanding what I was saying. It was about epistemology, which is the study of the nature of knowledge in philosophy, and he was arguing that automata theory proved that we can know things. And I kept telling him he should attack my definition of knowledge, but he just kept giving vague descriptions about concepts in automata theory and ultimately copped out by saying it was too complicated to explain if i remember correctly. And then on a separate instance he condescended to me by saying that "don't know computer science". That was the last straw for me. I pretty much just left after that and haven't associated with him since.

Wow. I really like Max's SOI

I wasn’t impressed.

2:04 AM

Max isn’t a functional adult. I don’t trust him to run a coffee maker much less a Makerspace.

That nomination graph is interesting

2:07 AM

someone has a personal issue with everyone running, good luck future board.

I hate everyone and I like several people running and will vote for them.

"Max isn’t a functional adult. I don’t trust him to run a coffee maker much less a Makerspace." example?

He steals laser time, you can smell him before you see him, his excuse for not paying for laser time was that some roommate of his was the one who paid for it, he’s constantly starting the dumbest drama about things like sitting in his chair, and I can go on if you’d like.

I disassociated from 3D fab as much as possible

Interesting. I've had very little interaction with him. Mostly just saw him show up and speak at board meetings.

That’s a shame Mitch because you and Axey were both competent and I miss that.

hes been banned for not payign for laser time previously

2:15 AM

and seems to have not learned his lesson

competent people know when to walk away

hmm

Re the graph... I think folks misconstrue nominating and voting. I don't see 2 camps at all, but I think there str probably 4-6 "factions" for lack of a better term

really not much 3D fab can do besides keep things running, $1200ish worth of broken form 2's and a next engine also is a turn off

2:23 AM

$12000

actually

2:23 AM

they could fucking train better

my outdated online class is still used?

instead of listing as many snippets of classes as possible to get honorarium

Oh that's right, I went to a 3d fab training with Max early last year

2:25 AM

I felt like it could have been explained better, slowed down, has exercises for people to do

Luke's 2 that audited were very good intros

im going to do a polyprinter training

2:29 AM

(the ones i do for a living)

2:29 AM

they take 90 mins and cover all filaments

2:29 AM

not a separate class for pla and then ninjaflex

Man today was a disappointing Makerspace day.

@DJ Vance can vote for up to as many seats as there are on the board, so zero to five

1

From Joe Kings SOI:

 I do not feel that it is the Boards position to micro-manage. The Board needs to be focused on the ‘big picture’ of growing the space, make good fiscal decisions, plan/adhere to a budget, and support expansion.

Yep we tried to do that yet we have to spend way too much time with troublesome members like himself.

8:52 AM

I'd rather vote for his boat.

1

Something for Kevin to do in winter: https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/what-is-a-hair-freezing-contest?utm_source=Atlas+Obscura+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=7311da4762-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2020_03_24&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f36db9c480-7311da4762-62961857&mc_cid=7311da4762&mc_eid=c5fbf6f992 (edited)

Half-Naked Canadians Compete for Cash by Freezing Their Hair

Bring your best braids and beards, because the competition is going to be stiff.

Where is Allen's SoI?

Dont see one... from my understanding historical he has run rather frequently. I think to just make a point about certain things.

Just read Max's TALK post about his candidacy. I had to chuckle at his statement about working on the family farm on weekends.

12:31 PM

Back when I was a (relatively) new member, I took two back-to-back classes, one on making silicone molds and one on resin casting. Both turned out to be the exact same thing. (???) At some point, I asked why he was wearing the suit jacket, while doing an activity considered rather messy. He replied that he had found that if he showed up at the farm wearing a sportcoat or suit jacket, he was less likely to be expected to do manual labor. Although his dad did press him into involuntary service anyway from time to time.

I can’t believe some of those people are serious. They can barely run to the store much less run a Makerspace

FWIW, you can wiki search "Statement of Intent Allen Wan" and get this back, (but it's more fun if we just say "Allen runs EVERY year", roll our eyes, walk away, and wait to see if it goads him into it again...

Hey it’s wishful thinking on my part. Allen is a lot of things, but he’s super competent and I trust him not to steal from the space.

5

He told me he 'was hoping not to run this year' so he'll probably end up waiting till the last minute.

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/2020-annual-meeting-elections-info/68873/11

I'd rather vote for his boat.

@Lampy (Ken Purcell) could we put in a SOI for the boat?

1

I might. I was thinking of putting one in for my cat.

for discussion : https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/emergency-item-2020-03-24-postpone-2020-election/70308

I guess the lack of parking is coming back with these guys

Denton County shelter-in-place : https://bloximages.newyork1.vip.townnews.com/dentonrc.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/4/a5/4a5e5408-381e-5a2f-bd63-aea0fd57ebb9/5e7a4db61229f.pdf.pdf

mmmm

Collin county is less restrictive ...

The intent of this Order is to protect the physical health and well-being of Collin County citizens, to protect the financial health and well-being of Collin County citizens, and to slow the spread of COVID-19 to the maximum extent possible while safeguarding the Constitutional liberties of Collin County citizens by utilizing the least restrictive means possible and encouraging the highest level of personal responsibility.

(edited)

2:36 PM

https://www.scribd.com/document/453054525/Collin-County-Executive-Order

Collin County Executive Order | Chronic Condition | Health Sciences

Collin County Judge Chris Hill issued an order to keep people at home in response to the spread of COVID-19.

Denton is a copy paste of Dallas I believe

I don’t think Max thought this through

I don't think he thinks he ever did anything wrong

"It was just $20 that I didn't pay, not $70"

I wouldn't be surprised if he really believes what he did is good.

@michaelb how much laser time can I steal I mean use for each tour I bring in?

1

However much I say you can use in advance!

5:06 PM

Which is 0!

5:07 PM

Honestly I'm not opposed to handing out trinkets or something during tours but the idea of 'showing off' by making things for people and trying to pass it off as PR....

But like I don’t want to ask you or anything. I just want to use it and take it to cons and keep what I’ve made afterwards.

Well that just sounds like stealing with extra steps.

2

Yeah but I’m totally going to show it off at a Con and get one whole person to take a tour.

And get free tickets to the con

Yeah I mean of course. I deserve them and I totally got one whole person from a crowded con to take a tour so that excuses all of my prior actions.

That thread is like the Energizer bunny... It just keeps going and going

1

I'm curious about the comped benefits he gets during conventions. Posted a question

Lol I was all bothered that engraving concepts sent me a box of brownies after we bought the laser clearly there were bigger issues to worry about.

Everyone dunking on Max has warmed my heart. I’m even proud of Patrick for sticking to his guns.

I came here to say the same this thread is so entertaining

Omg there’s a clown emoji

add enough steps and ~~it's not stealing~~ you obfuscate the trail to the point that no one can track it

I have so many regrets. I have been severely underutilizing the clown emoji

2

it's interesting to me that some candidates aren't responding to Marshall's very simple poll

6:20 PM

I wonder how many are willing to accept the direct, personal liability of allowing someone back who defrauded the organization and put it at risk of losing it's non-profit status...

6:21 PM

D&O won't cover that sort of thing

I’m concerned that we’re getting distracted from some of the other terrible candidates by dunking on Max.

But he makes it so freaking easy. He just admits to the stuff because he thinks he's doing a good thing.

It HAS been entertaining but I’m concerned that others are feeling neglected.

@aceat64 I wasn’t aware of a poll up. And to @SewingStuff Max messaged me to jump onto the thread but I exclaimed I was going to be honest about it.

it was definitely ~$70ish

@Patrickpleez1 I talked with you before, I think I know which way you'll vote on it

6:32 PM

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/ask-the-candidates-2020-edition/70267/5

6:32 PM

this is what we're referring to btw

thanks for weighing in Patrick

7:03 PM

I saw you've voted in the poll now

@aceat64 this is the most I’ve used talk. Lol I just learned how to quote today. I like that feature.

there's an awesome tutorial thing now, try sending the user discobot a message with @discobot start new user

On talk or here?

on talk

7:23 PM

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/u/discobot/summary

discobot

Hi, I’m not a real person. I’m a bot that can teach you about this site. To interact with me, send me a message or mention @discobot anywhere.

on discord its mee6

8:35 PM

or something like that

that's just a popular discord bot

8:42 PM

discobot is actually built-in to Discourse/Talk

8:43 PM

new accounts automatically get a PM from it with info on how to start the tutorial

Weee. NOT

11:19 PM

Draco just asked for me to nominate a couple BoD candidates

oh?

11:22 PM

thats pretty interesting since he's not a member

11:22 PM

did he give any reason as to why?

"The non-profit supports my community and the larger maker community of which I'm a part .. it is an important part in it .. I have worked closely with DMS for years now and volunteered countless hours ... the effects extend well beyond DMS .. and it is owned by the public in trust to the board"

11:26 PM

His response to my telling him I don't look upon a non member actively politicing with favor, but allowing that he has the legal right to do so. (edited)

Thats...interesting.

11:35 PM

I won't argue there is nothing legal stopping him.

11:35 PM

It seems to reek of a less than reasonable obsession. (edited)

Is there a reason we call them "nominations" instead of "endorsements"?

12:22 AM

In other words, if nobody signed on as a nominator, would the SOI be thrown out?

There's not really a good reason, and I guess yeah we'd throw them out

12:24 AM

It's never come up

12:24 AM

Even the worst candidates can find at least one person, just look at Freddie

Hey. I resemble that remark.

lol

Actually yes

LOL

12:28 AM

cries

A nm nomination is not an endorsement. I have endorse no candidates

@doug.emes are you saying you haven't nominated anyone? I see your name on one of the SOIs though?

No I absolutely nominated mr king. I'm saying nomination and endorsement are 2 different concepts.

2

I see nominations like a seconding a motion at a Board meeting - moves the item to a vote where one may vote for, against, or abstain

2

Ok thanks @doug.emes for clarifying. Still trying to wrap my head around the logic though... so you feel strongly enough about Joe King to nominate him, but not enough to endorse him? What is your take on endorsing someone?

Nomination is like this. Yes, this person is a dues paying member on good standing... I went through the 86 archive to try to find any suspensions in fact. The difference to me is an endorsement means I'm voting for this person, de facto campaigning. I feel the current bylaws based on a band of a dozen to 35 folks said a nomination is yeah, let this person run. With ~1860 folks now, its convuleted.

Ok, I still don't grasp the logic, but I appreciate your input

We have the membership in general acting as an artificial but needed gateway to limiting 100+ names (edited)

I doubt we'd ever get 100+ people to volunteer for such a massive job, heck there are usually just about 10 each year.

10:08 AM

That's why I see the act of nominating someone as basically the same as endorsing ther person's character and leadership skills. Just my $0.02

I get it. I think @ESmith said it well, likening it to a call for vote, for which I can still vote for or against. I call for vote on whether candidate X will be a board member (nomination). I vote not (no endorsement) -OR- I vote for (endorsement). Maybe that just makes it murkier, but it works for me...

@doug.emes

I feel the current bylaws based on a band of a dozen to 35 folks said a nomination is yeah, let this person run. With ~1860 folks now, its convuleted.

Agreed. The bylaws, to an extent the standing rules, and to a large degree the culture are very much rooted in the past of governance by consensus. (edited)

1

Or just don't nominate if you don't support/endorse someone? In this analogy of it being like a "second" or "call to vote", a vote fails if it doesn't get a second

@merissa I generally feel that nomination should indicate a degree of support and limit my nominations to candidates I can support, however it's a preliminary step

Yeah, I guess the argument is pointless since there's no set criteria for what nomination means... and it's not even a requirement for the candidates

1

@doug.emes to clarify, you are listed as an "endorsement" on Joe King's SOI

10:28 AM

when I sought my nominations, I specifically sought to only include those that would also be endorsements to help reduce confusion

1

2

Good catch! With the talk of the difference between the two I didnt even notice the wording difference on each SOI

10:31 AM

For reference here's Joe's list...

Yeah... just one more way a candidate differentiates from the others, by actually following directions and using the prescribed verbiage not that being a director involves any technicalities or anything...

1

Idk... I kind of consider it a bit loke an endorsement. Putting my name out there by their name. Plus if i wasn't a big fan I'd just prefer them to not get a second and it die, which i would assume means they cant run?

Yeah, the difference is why I asked the initial question. If a nomination is simply to put someone on the ballot, seems like that number should be stated. But as a layman, if I see someone listed on someones SOI, I interpret it as "yeah, I think this person could be an effective board member." But if it's the other, seems like a member nominating another would be putting their name on EVERY SOI. (edited)

1

The Gorman plan

Also the 86 list doesn't cover the various committee level bans

yeah; I actually hadn't even given that much thought given most metal bans have only been 30 days or thereabouts

12:17 PM

but I do have one that's gone on for over a year now because the member refuses to speak to the committee about it

12:17 PM

should probably get a list going at some point

And I think the 86 list only shows people who are currently banned

right; we have a known issue where repeat offenders aren't caught across committees due to a lack of knowledge between chairs and the board

That exact issue happened with John Thummel. At least 3 chairs (laser/me being one of them) didn't know he was violating rules in the others' areas. Kris was going around to each chair covering for him and asking for leniency.

12:46 PM

I only found out about the other two committee areas much later.

12:48 PM

We three chairs would have filed a joint petition to the board for permanent area bans had we known.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pYP3hnhmlw&t=60

MANSON HANSON

Rick and Morty - Morty's presidential speech scene

No I absolutely nominated mr king. I'm saying nomination and endorsement are 2 different concepts.

@doug.emes And here is some humble pie. I mis-recalled my private communication. I was asked for an endorsement, and I said yes. I apologize for the bad memory of doing stuff late at night. It doesn't change my thoughts at all about nominations... and that's what I thought I had agreed to... but no, I was asked and I said yes, therefore I in fact endorsed.

3:53 PM

Also, when I was approached, there was less than 5, so I will claim some "Exigent" circumstance to increase our quantity

3:56 PM

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium I support you 100% grilling another candidate on their SoI post, but not as a response to the secretary's post, willing to discuss here (edited)

@doug.emes I've already asked for help moving it to its own threadf

andiu appreciate it

all of the items for that particularly contentious question SOI and otherwise

thanks

3:58 PM

especially since it MAY become the defacto interview the candidates interaction

I'm not doing it myself because I try to avoid moderation actions on threads I'm very active in, so that's why I tagged the moderation team to get it rolling

since were closed

yeah

100% agree with you

I'd like to avoid that too

and again, ive got no problem jim and jimmy roasting other candidates, just not in that post

was mostly replying based on the notifications anyway so it went where I was tagged

yeah I get it

but you're right it's off rails

and I know eric is probably slammed at Big Red

3:59 PM

im going to tag you in infra for a infra related but not DMS thing

Erik works for Rasputin?

4:00 PM

(destiny 2 joke)

4:00 PM

Pearce will roll his eyes, but he gets it

I only have Destiny1 on XBOX1 (edited)

Destiny 2 is free to play now

maybe 6 hrs of gameplay

4:01 PM

i know i know, bad human

4:02 PM

we wont talk about my game hours on Neverwinter

4:02 PM

or the MUDs in the 90s and 00's

1

Oddly enough I seem to have quasi mod powers but have never used them

probably tied to the announce only functionality

actually when you have a high enough reputation in discourse it automatically grants a limited set of mod powers

remarkably salient points in this:

which ones?

Our membership numbers are down. the quitters are at record numbers. (not sure on the 3d fab thing; doesn't really matter to me), and the number of chairs who have resigned and blamed the board is [probably] at a record. The bickering probably is the reason people stay away from talk. And this probably does come down to (rough paraphrase) if you like the direction of DMS in the last year, vote for the folks who were part of that; if you don't vote for the other faction. I think it goes off the rails for where the common sense, community approach representation lies, however.

Electronics, science, glass and screenprinting also moved

5:21 PM

Digital media

5:21 PM

The people crying about "community" were the same people who were shouting "WE ARENT A CLUBHOUSE ANYMORE" two years ago

2

To set the blame on the current board for down membership numbers is hilarious

Yeah that's bullshit too

5:22 PM

Just like how Trump claimed he turned the economy around like 2 months into presidency

As for banned people and resigned chairs, one might look at the circumstances before placing blame.

(feels like every president does it tho)

1

Its nice to list those negatives out and put the "blame" on this board. Many are issues that would have had to have been dealt with by any board

5:23 PM

DMS has spent a good long while living the high life on luck and rainbows.

5:24 PM

I don't say this to say that the work put in was not worthy, I say this to explain that the success has been a lot of right place right time.

5:24 PM

(The later success)

I largely agree. Most of what has happened NEEDED to happen. That's why I think THIS B&O is the common sense, community approach.

Community! (thieves, rapist, etc.) But there are 99.9% that are amazing people just wanting to do their thing! I was on the BoD to try and keep that happening. It took everyone on D&O and some other really committed people on the ships wheel to make the course correction we needed. Could you imagine if we were expansion broke?

It didn't go on long enough, but we seemed to be regaining members as well at the beginning of this year. Not a very fast growth. But now we have quite a cliff.

yup, lot of covid cancellations

7:08 PM

!members

There are currently 1807 members.

yeah. it's been plummety in the last week... (shown in Brandon's charts, I think...)

yeah I know; I get every cancellation notice and why they cancel

7:14 PM

Covid, covid, "covid lol"

We had a very successful ad campaign going and the Saturday tours helped

3

7:17 PM

Having smaller tour groups is hugely important. But you need lots of tour guides for that

Yea, I think people tend to sign up more if they get some more time to ask their questions and spend time just on what they're interested in. Although I did have most of a large group sign up -- and boy does a large group doing that show we need to work on our signup

If it's not "can't use because of covid" it's "laid off because of covid"

Yea, and I'm sympathetic to both. I'm impressed it's not dropped off more still. Though we still have plenty of time

theres actually a lot of people who would like to see the space hang around and will continue the membership to do so

8:18 PM

right now i think we are seeing the customers not being able to use the space and of course being indignant about it (edited)

heck, Haley lives in CA and rejoined specifically to help support DMS during this

@AGr identified the fragility in our membership retention in a functioning economy. Imagine worse in this once in a 100 years collapse.

the "get a membership while its cheaper" was one of the worst pushes the space made for membership

Will be interesting if same drop off rate applies now as in the past, in which case in 6 months membership number will be half

8:20 PM

That's if it stayed closed for that long, which seems unlikely

it's likely to be another 2-3 weeks at the least

9:07 PM

suspect the membership drop will intensify as this drags on

Yep. Perhaps some may be waiting until just before their charge date, and I'm sure we'll see a decent drop in the first 30 days of closure. Not sure how low though.

would be an opportune time to rework rates once we have a plan to reopen.

10:25 PM

I'm a big fan of $50, that extra $10 makes me pause.

3

Im pretty sure my job is stable so i can hang in here a bit and see how things go. Ben got laid off, so his situation is different. (If anyone is hiring anything in his skill set let me know, i imagine everything is slow right now though). (edited)

Kevin just challenged people to call the school to see what his position really was who wants to call him on that bluff? I'm busy today

1

I wish there was a garbage can emoji on Talk for these garbage responses he's giving

️ is as close as I can see... Probably not the right sentiment...

I like clown, personally.

11:07 AM

The red bird of shitbird is also nice.

Really want to ask him if he'll do as much on the BoD as he's done while being the Volunteer Coordinator

3

Damn, is that 80-100 hours working for Kevin, the pole business or DMS?

I thought he made stripper poles for a living

Now imagine a dark gentlemen's club with LED poles and no customers. I guess he can sell them as safety handrails.

Vegas has a drive thru reportedly

FYI : https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/2020-annual-meeting-elections-info/68873/3

Makes sense

Hey... in your standing rules edit it mentions chairs for infra and finance.

2:34 PM

Should be officers, and probably not perview of infra now that we have a member services coordinator (edited)

Hey... in your standing rules edit it mentions chairs for infra and finance.

If I've mis-transcribed something from a Board meeting, I'd like to know, however I believe that was something before my term as Secretary

I meant there's no such thing as a finance chair

3:38 PM

There's no such thj b.f as a infra chair

3:38 PM

Based on your other standing rules edits

3:39 PM

With the unified officer documents

3:39 PM

The last comme t regarding coordinator is a suggestion only

3:40 PM

But if the role is to be believed by title, that's who should get involved

Changing the rules requires a board vote, even if they are unclear or a section is out of date due to another section changing

1

5:09 PM

I'm also confused on what you mean by standing rules edit, the last edit to the page was on March 4th and makes no mention of chairs or officers

THAT

5:22 PM

For the most part I don't even correct blinkingly obvious typos without a Board resolution

Yeah. THAT.

6:18 PM

This oddity was explained to me a year ago by Chris Marlowe, when I noted weirdness in the rules regarding responsibilities bestowed upon a committee that no longer even existed. Erik was nice enough to help me draft the resolution - which was on the one of the first board agendas for the current board back whenever they took office. (June?) So if it be wrong, draft a resolution and put on the agenda.

Supporting Member must have been a member for the immediate past 90 days to become a Regular Member. Exceptions will be considered on a case by case basis jointly by the Infrastructure and Finance Chairs.

9:16 PM

That's the quote verbatim

9:17 PM

Hence .... secretary officially adds things to board agendas etc

ok, but that hasn't changed recently and to change it would need a board vote

And he places agenda itens

9:28 PM

Hence judy and I mentioning this herr

Anyone can make an agenda item for a board meeting but we don't have another meeting scheduled, the March meeting was to be our last one

I think it stems back from BoD MtG 201i0917

9:43 PM

But trying to use the wiki to search for it... ugh

im confused what the goal is doug

Define finance committee chair

9:44 PM

We don't have one

we missed a change

9:44 PM

volunteers (edited)

The way you worded it about being an edit was confusing, it sounded like there was a recent change you were talking about

No I meant since he posted it fresh in that post, it needs an edit

9:49 PM

If that was unclear my bad

9:49 PM

But... hes the chief who drafted the combinedproposal, who drafted the unified roles,

9:50 PM

And it would take me alot longer to find the neccessary documentation to correct than the author

9:50 PM

As for agenda items, ice done several in the past 6 months, almost all tables or dismissed, so yes, I'm familiar with the process

9:50 PM

But for this example, I believe Erik is the best submitteor

9:50 PM

Ugh spelling

Best I can tell, the present Board is well aware that they're in a lame duck period forced by the COVID 19 situation, and really only wants to keep the organization solvent and making what progress that it can during this shutdown. The next Board may well wish to take a different direction and may or may not follow the current board's informal procedures.

10:01 PM

I can certainly draft something which along with the tabled items from the last meeting the next Board may deign to consider

Thanks that's all I'm asking for

10:03 PM

But as written that standing rule is broke

but everyone understands how it works

A project I had hoped to achieve this year but never did was to rationalize and segment up the standing rules

10:21 PM

Keep really important stuff like (most of) the code of conduct as the top level doc but divert stuff like membership rules, committee ops, firearms rules, etc into their own documents

10:24 PM

The bylaws more or less need to be replaced outright but that struggle is more than I can manage

I concur with your italicized text

is Raffi ok?

4:09 PM

he pinged me multiple times in a very short window

Maybe he could use some of Havens’ pot brownies. God knows he has more than enough to share.

4

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Sealioning

Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, ...

he pinged me multiple times in a very short window

@aceat64 ??? On what platform?

BTW @DJ Vance there is a little more info on Mark's motivations in the thread I linked. He wanted it so he could send out mass BOD campaign mailers.

9:43 PM

Personally, I don't think that rises to a legitimate purpose.

Reading is for chumps

9:45 PM

Defending notorious shitbirds is where it’s at.

hah...well, it's buried in a lot of mincewords

So exactly what circumstances would that information be given out? All i haven gotten from that thread is a need to edit that information to something else

Defending notorious shitbirds is where it’s at.

@SewingStuff "Raffi bad. Raffi troll. Troll bad. Raffi bad."

I don't exactly mind to get information from DMS proper or if the police needed it.

9:47 PM

But i don't want random members being able to request it

1

We send out annual election announcements in the mail, or used to.

I would support a change to the bylaws that changes how that information is accessed. Maybe a more formalized process and only to those who have given consent. We probably already ask for consent to send emails, but I think having separate consent for sharing emails through these requests would be wise.

9:51 PM

I don't think the bylaws mention that the requestor has to be a member.

Until we change the bylaws, though, we have to rely on fiduciary duty and common sense.

lemme check

Raffi, in that thread you tagged me multiple times in like an hour lol

Raffi you are really more of a sealion if we want to get specific.

Yeah just lean into it

I’m just saddened that you’re wasting everyone’s time in defense of maybe the worst person at DMS.

Anyway, this is interesting: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/BO/htm/BO.22.htm#22.158

9:59 PM

and relevant I might add

9:59 PM

lol

I wasn’t really missing Draco.

And I mean...in the end, the BOD was right. He really was acting in bad faith.

Raffi, Mark Havens seems to be much more interested in his own results than DMS, can't seem to understand no over night vehicles, trying to use DMS mailing list for his own purposes, you don't seem bad, just asking for info.

2

Havens thought the board was trying to silence him with a ban. In reality he was printing whole reams of paper worth of trolly flyers making fun of candidates ans putting up false campaign flyers for them.

10:11 PM

And pinning buttons on old fragile costumes that members had been asked to put on display for an art gallery

And I mean...in the end, the BOD was right. He really was acting in bad faith.

@Toenolla Wait are you Mark?

10:13 PM

lol

10:14 PM

To me this is not an argument of Mark good vs. Mark bad. That's what I'm picking up from you guys

@DJ Vance He didn't put his intended use in the request. That's what I mean by bad faith.

@Toenolla I'll take that as a yes

Raffi “This murderer has murdered 14 people. How dare you assume that when he was poised over a 15th person with a knife that he intended to murder them.”

@DJ Vance definitely a no, though.

When he was told that he damaged another members work, he responded by calling the member a baby and made his own version of the costume to put on display in the form of a baby blanket to further drive his opinion home

10:16 PM

He was told to stop posting the false statements,and he thought he should have access to the mailing addresses of the voting members so he could mail them directly

Raffi “This murderer has murdered 14 people. How dare you assume that when he was poised over a 15th person with a knife that he intended to murder them.”

@SewingStuff I'm not saying the board should have given the benefit of the doubt. My argument, for probably not the last time, is that the bylaws say that the purpose is stated in the letter.

No but see the guy said he wasn't going murder #15 so we're just gonna give him a knife to hold over him.

The lawyer at the time said we shouldn't give him the addresses

Raffi knows way better than an actual lawyer. He totally googled it.

10:22 PM

Did Raffi ragequit and give his account to Draco or do we just have two of these fucking guys now?

@DJ Vance What stated purpose though? Can you tell what he intended to do with the information from that language? I can't.

The lawyer at the time said we shouldn't give him the addresses

@pearce That's a fair point. Who's our lawyer?

Uhhhh

You have to actually state a purpose when you make a request like this.

I mean I can probably find it, but

I'd have to look. I don't have to deal with him so I don't know off the top of my head

10:26 PM

I do know its a different person now

hmm wonder why

10:27 PM

I wonder what our new lawyer's thoughts are on this

Family Guy re-runs on. Season 1. The. Best. Show...

Because hold my beer burned a few

The lawyer at the time said we shouldn't give him the addresses

@pearce When you say addresses here, do you mean email addresses, mailing addresses, or both?

Voting members info

10:28 PM

Whatever he asked for

10:28 PM

I'm not speaking in specifics here so let's not try to word lawyer me on phrasing

@DJ Vance Personally, I don't think it's worth paying our lawyer to reexamine this.

@Toenolla Even without knowing how much it would cost?

Raffi, what do you think we should do in the situation that someone requests info under the bylaws, provides a clear purpose, the lawyer says give them the info, but a board member blocks it?

@DJ Vance yes. It's not worth a dime. He's not pursuing the data anymore.

Raffi, what do you think we should do in the situation that someone requests info under the bylaws, provides a clear purpose, the lawyer says give them the info, but a board member blocks it?

@aceat64 Who is "we" in that sentence?

we the membership

10:31 PM

or rather, what should happen to that board member?

10:31 PM

hypothetically

ban for life

It's the one where Stewie and Brain RV across the US to San Francisco to meet "Stewie's Fathter"...

jk there are much better ways of handling that

awesome, glad to hear you agree with the Kris ban then

10:31 PM

lol

I think the membership should vote at the next election

10:34 PM

If the lawyer says the blocking access to the info is against the Texas Business Organizations Code, then that action could put us in jeopardy of losing our non-profit status. I think that's how that works anyway

yes, usually it's best to go with the lawyer's advice

10:35 PM

which is what the board did in regards to Mark's request way back then

2

wasn't that pretty much the first time DMS felt the need to retainer a lawyer?

I'm not sure, I think we may have had him before that

Has anyone ever seen the movie Hellraiser?

Have not seen hellraiser

10:38 PM

remember the poster

10:38 PM

were you reduced to watching that to fill your evening?

So spoiler alert, there’s a scene where one character wears another character’s skin and tries to pretend to be him but you can figure out who he really is from his behavior.

1

which is what the board did in regards to Mark's request way back then

@aceat64 Like I said, that's fair. But "because the lawyer said so" is very different from "because we thought that he had intentions of doing something improper"

I’m just saying that Draco may have found a puzzle box promising him endless camo.

1

2

they said both of those things in the thread though...

@aceat64 My argument was more about what the board should have done. Seems like they were stopped from doing what they should have done by a lawyer, which I think excuses them from responsibility.

I mean, the board did do what it should have done. Ask the lawyer.

10:45 PM

Like, personally if it came down to me, I would have asked him to resend it with more detailed information. But I'm not a lawyer.

I'm pretty sure we're in violation of this: https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/BO/htm/BO.22.htm#22.158

10:49 PM

"(a) After setting a record date for the notice of a meeting, a corporation shall prepare an alphabetical list of the names of all its voting members. The list must identify: (1) the members who are entitled to notice and the members who are not entitled to notice of the meeting; (2) the address of each voting member; and (3) the number of votes each voting member is entitled to cast at the meeting. (b) Not later than the second business day after the date notice is given of a meeting for which a list was prepared in accordance with Subsection (a), and continuing through the meeting, the list of voting members must be available at the corporation's principal office or at a reasonable place in the municipality in which the meeting will be held, as identified in the notice of the meeting, for inspection by members entitled to vote at the meeting for the purpose of communication with other members concerning the meeting. (c) A voting member or voting member's agent or attorney is entitled on written demand to inspect and, at the member's expense and subject to Section 22.351, copy the list at a reasonable time during the period the list is available for inspection. (d) The corporation shall make the list of voting members available at the meeting. A voting member or voting member's agent or attorney is entitled to inspect the list at any time during the meeting or an adjournment of the meeting."

I’m pretty sure you don’t have the education or experience to make any statements on that matter Google esquire

@SewingStuff There is are no education or experience requirements for Discord and possibly for advising the board as a lawyer

10:51 PM

I’m pretty sure you don’t have the education or experience to make any statements on that matter Google esquire

@SewingStuff Were you the one who claimed to be a fan of reading?

Advising AS A LAWYER? Oh honey you sure aren’t in any position to be doing THAT.

@SewingStuff you may have missed the joke

This whole thing is really kind of a joke.

Good. Laugh. It lowers your cortisol levels I'm no doctor though

I'm really glad we have the politics channel (no that isn't sarcasm)

we're not a typical corporation where there's equity and dividends at stake thus the damages that can be claimed in a lawsuit are so low as to not be worth litigating

10:59 PM

WRT to Mr Havens, I will say that short of some truly shocking - borderline inconceivable - revelations there is nothing that will motivate me to vote for him

raffi I suggest you read the most important section regarding ordinary care:

Sec. 22.221.  GENERAL STANDARDS FOR DIRECTORS.  (a)  A director shall discharge the director's duties, including duties as a committee member, in good faith, with ordinary care, and in a manner the director reasonably believes to be in the best interest of the corporation.

(b)  A director is not liable to the corporation, a member, or another person for an action taken or not taken as a director if the director acted in compliance with this section.  A person seeking to establish liability of a director must prove that the director did not act:

(1)  in good faith;

(2)  with ordinary care;  and

(3)  in a manner the director reasonably believed to be in the best interest of the corporation.

11:00 PM

tl;dr an officer would be violating ordinary care if they handed info over knowing it was going to be used to commit a crime etc

I wouldn’t vote for Havens if the candidates only consisted of Havens.

like falsifying documents, harassment, etc

WRT information requests, there are certain individuals it DMS that I will simply not be giving information to

11:05 PM

I'm not going to drop names, but I have every reason to believe that requests from those individuals would be counter to the interests of the corporation

..... to the interests of the .... current board et al

Did someone open the goddamn puzzle box?

Some things are pretty solid in law, just as voting members being able to communicate with other voting members about a meeting, even if the communication is not something the current administration likes.

@SewingStuff that puzzle box is pretty cool. I recently saw one that was like this except it was an actual lock box. Very intricate.

Patrick let us out

It may be my fault for saying your name three times.

Like beetle juice

that would do it .... well. I'm here now

11:46 PM

happy?

I mean it’s either you or your skinwalker.

Terms that sound bad: skinwalker being added to my list of nope words

I think I am who I am but I might just be dreaming all this

11:48 PM

Soooo what has been going on?

11:49 PM

What did I miss?

11:50 PM

And that is a really cool box @SewingStuff

11:50 PM

I wonder if that is goldleaf

@Draco in reference to what did I miss? Use your face eyes, man.

Looks like Raffi was debating and then I showed up .. she asked if someone opened a puzzle box and let us out

Well, not us, you.

Me and Raffi .. I mean but if it was just me .. okay

11:54 PM

Any interesting politics to talk about?

11:54 PM

Replacing all the Red chairs with Green ones?

I love the red chairs. They’re amazingly comfortable.

The red chairs aren’t terrible @Draco why does everyone hate those things

no they aren't terrible .. they just aren't good

The chairs serve the purpose of sits

Depends on body shape

11:58 PM

and how long you want to sit ...

I actually do find them really comfortable. I wish you guys would get rid of them. I’d scoop them all up for my classroom.

I'm all for people hanging out for several hours at the space

11:59 PM

not forever but many hours

11:59 PM

I think different people have different ideas of comfort .. so having a verity is most likely best (edited)

Not all human spines and butts are created equally I suppose.

It is why they created so many different chairs

12:02 AM

donations are great too

12:02 AM

but I am not a fan of the chairs donated in the wearhouse

12:02 AM

or use to be in the wearhouse .. no idea where they are now .. the cloth squatty ones

12:03 AM

I cannot wait until the computer lab is up and running

12:03 AM

that is going to be so great

I’ll agree to the computer lab.

12:04 AM

Everyone involved with that has done great work.

Does the space still have the freebie shelf?

You mean the member exchange shelf? Yes.

ah ok .. renamed

12:10 AM

cool

I like the name change. Feels more correct.

yeah me too

12:12 AM

But can you exchange members?

12:13 AM

(edited)

I was really hoping for it to be the “trashed in the dumpster” shelf

not a fan then

12:14 AM

It has its problems but I do think it is useful .. I've pulled many good and useful things from it (edited)

@SewingStuff , I wasn’t upset when it left, all I’m saying is I wish members were more responsible and respectful of what they put in there.

12:21 AM

On*

12:22 AM

There is a sign in black and white no one reads.

I think people in the past have felt ownership in the space. They felt like they belonged and it wasn't some top driven org. I think the more people feel that way, the more that they want to be members instead of customers. Customers don't care because someone else will take care of it. True members actually care enough not to mess things up and even clean up and volunteer. It is my opinion that we went down a path that enables more customers than members.

Who pressed the community button on Draco? Someone remove his batteries.

All I said was read a sign?

Well, Jim did .. https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/to-whom-it-may-concern-your-forum-thanks-are-kinda-rude/70440/3

To whom it may concern, your forum "Thanks" are kinda rude

You’re not a customer, you’re a member. That means being part of a community; you’re part of an organization that’s run by people giving back and following a set of basic courtesies. The moderation team is all volunteers, just like everyone else that makes this place run. If ...

We have community. Just because it’s not what you’re used to doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist

12:26 AM

It certainly does exist

12:26 AM

and i didn't mention community ... I said ownership

That's some boomer shit

12:26 AM

Getting mad at a forum default thread

3

I got a bunch of people together who willingly wanted to do a stupid video. And it got a lot of good reception from members.

12:27 AM

I mean, community is still alive and well at DMS.

It is.. but is ownership

12:27 AM

?

12:28 AM

doacrcy ... being able to pick up a project and just run with it

12:28 AM

being able to have a committee to answer to and not always the board

12:28 AM

Having committees be the mainstay

That can still happen. It should have always just went through the proper channels.

Proper channels should be committees

12:29 AM

not the board or officers

If a change involves the space or an area within, the board and officers have every right to approve or deny.

I'm for limited upper administration and more committee level decisions

Gonna have to fundamentally restructure DMS to achieve that ideal, Draco. All the way down to the Certificate of Formation and change it to a Member-managed corporation.

No.. I disagree .. the bylaws give committee government

12:32 AM

This is the way it has been for a while before this year

12:32 AM

and perhaps the one before that

you are factually wrong

12:34 AM

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Bylaws#Section_2.1_Board_of_Directors

Section 2.1 Board of Directors The activities and affairs of this corporation shall be overseen by the Board of Directors, subject to the provisions of the laws of the state of Texas and any limitations in the Articles of Incorporation and these Bylaws.

Bylaws

12:34 AM

and this is why I have you on ignore

@ESmith Then there would be no point in elected and appointed positions. Which wouldn’t be good. I get that’s what he wants. @Draco the spending and sporadic decisions needed to be managed. We needed the changes we received.

1

Uhhhh. Draco, did you hit your head while you were un-membered?

@Patrickpleez1 the Board governs the corporation, most effectively so by delegating functions out ala Officers and Committees

12:35 AM

They however retain ultimate responsibility and control

I'm sorry .. I'm not arguing that the board is not the final word .. I'm saying that their place is to interface other governements / officials .. make sure committees have all the resources to function. Take care of just the basics, though

From where I sit, the committee system is working fine; the Board rides herd on big purchases. As it should have been all along.

I didn’t pour myself enough to play the Draco drinking game tonight

OK, now you're making more sense

Bylaws: "Each committee may adopt rules for its own government not inconsistent with these Bylaws or with guidelines given by the Board of Directors." The board gives guidelines.

Oh he said bylaws!

Drink!

Take a shot

I wish the committees would take a bit more ownership. I also wish the Board had set more into motion to encourage this ala the big restructure to finances and honorarium that's been talked about since before this Board term. (edited)

nods ... I think the committees may need more tools and classes on running an effective committee .. education after all.

Ooh he said education!

i.e. set an annual budget for committees like woodshop, give them a goal for training, then let them figure out how to best achieve the rest of their goals. (edited)

@ESmith I agree with the tagged statement towards me. And also, I also agree with everything you said in reference to ownership. But I do agree to continue on an upswing it still needs to be monitored until we regain our numbers.

Even today committees largely seem to hold meetings, decide they want something, then ask for authority to get it without a heck of a lot of planning

1

I think they should have a budget being the max that they can ask for from the board. Any other money has to come from elsewhere .. we need to get back to the chain that worked ..... Public/Members "votes" for Instructors through attendance, Instructors "vote" for committees through honorarium. This worked but it some how got broken this past year. I'm not going to place blame but move forward. We need to be able to reconnect the chain and allow committees to find teachers to "earn" money instead of always asking the board. This is what I mean by more committee run. THEY have to find teachers ... THEY have to "earn" money ... the memebrship has to buy into it too

Fuck. I meant a different emoji @ESmith how do I change that.

think you can click on it again. or just add the right one.

12:42 AM

it's temporal comms so no worries

Okay. Thank you. I hate discord sometimes.

@Draco the idea is to decouple committee finances from teaching classes and let them decide how to meet their required training mandates

I also think committee budgets should fluctuate with our up and down season.

if that means putting in the volunteer hours on video/web training for the rote stuff and a 5 minute practical scheduled twice-weekly for certification by a volunteer then that committee can pretty much stop spending money on training (edited)

If a committee starts floundering ... there will need to be some sort of way to get this from data .. then ask the committee not the chair if they want help .. then provide it in terms of instruction .. money if they can prove they have a plan .. and if the committee fails .. then allow another group to come and start again .. The committees shouldn't be "the membership" .. it should be a group of people willing to all put in effort for something they want ...

now that's more back-of-the-house tool-centric, natch. the model for front-of-the-house committees might have to be different.

That’s one thing I’m adamant on making happen. The online training.

project classes seems to drive those committees

I want it streamlined.

12:48 AM

I want someone who just came in, to be able to get into wood shop within 3 hours of joining.

12:48 AM

I think that’s a logical timetable

I think part of a good committee .. is having meetups/interest groups .. let me explain why Many people come for the tools .. that is true But many also come for the knowledge and socialization aspects .. being able to meet other like minded people This is where interest groups come in .. it can be utilized by committees to gain members and popularity

I think Paul is working on correcting the woodworker-centric training model in woodshop now, which assumes everyone using their tools wants to make cabinets or furniture when the reality is that there's a bit carpenter demographic that really just wants to cut stock to size and drill holes

a committee meeting is a poor interest group

12:51 AM

not very INTERESTing

I teach a wood shop class and I can get a one on one through in an hour.

that works for some of the DMS member base, but do keep in mind that most of our members are here for personal projects and the social aspect is hit-or-miss. We might convert more of those folks to long-term members, we might just retain them for longer, or we might miss the mark entirely.

And that’s showing everything they do in the shop.

12:53 AM

@ESmith I see the retention issue as a challenge I want to take on.

The socialization aspect has to be rebuilt ... it was popular a while back .. a whole lot of people were not getting their social fix, I keep hearing since all the changes happened

12:53 AM

some classes were even aspects of that socialzaion

@Patrickpleez1 Member Services is working on things in that area - improving the onboarding process would help immensely

1

I think member retention is more important than onboarding

onboarding happens first

I have a few ideas of my own. And I hope that what they do, and what I have came up with mesh well, if o get elected.

I think onboarding IS important .. very imporant

I*

but if you just have onboarding and no retention .. you have very high churn

we lose members because they don't know anything coming in

because boy howdy is DMS a lot for our somewhat ... reserved ... general demo that has no earthly idea how to do things

more so than we lose members because of "social" stuff

1

12:56 AM

they leave because they don't know they can ask "hey can we get a class on this"

Well, if you think about who sticks around ... they all know each other

members get lost in the crowd and eventually drop out

or "FYI the calendar should be checked regularly, classes often don't show until a couple days before"

2

or they can't get access to some tool / class

Yes .. they do get lost in the crowd

if you need something don't be afraid to ask committee chairs

1

12:56 AM

etc

12:56 AM

yup

we lose members because they don't know anything coming in

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium I feel this is because the tours lack information sometimes

the tours aren't the right place for this info

the handbook seems to come and go

12:57 AM

the wiki 4-1-1 page isn't bad, but the wiki format only seems to really work for entrenched insiders

1

social stuff = on-site drinking/drunkenness and several people literally living at DMS.

"members get lost in the crowd and eventually drop out" .. I think if they do not have friends that are there, do not access to the tools/training, feel unwelcome and no way to really meet like-minded people .. it has very little with living at the space or drinking (edited)

the tours aren't the right place for this info

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium I believe that people should be informed of class fees and such. I have always included this info in my tours.

@stephenie there did used to be a huge degree of that. and I'm of a mind that we should not be encouraging members to use DMS as substitute dining rooms and living rooms. But I will agree that some degree of fellowship should be encouraged - however I see it regularly despite calls to the contrary.

1:00 AM

What I see less of nowadays is co-dependency on DMS

"members get lost in the crowd and eventually drop out" .. I think if they do not have friends that are there, do not access to the tools/training, feel unwelcome and no way to really meet like-minded people .. it has very little with living at the space or drinking

@Draco the first part of this is irrelevant to most members; they come here to use tools and make stuff, take classes. They generally don't come to socialize.

social stuff = on-site drinking/drunkenness and several people literally living at DMS.

@stephenie I may be a fan of drinking a beer or two here or there. But I was never a fan of it at DMS

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium I believe that people should be informed of class fees and such. I have always included this info in my tours.

@Patrickpleez1 Again, not the right place. Say some classes have fees, others don't. But this is not a good place to retain information

1:01 AM

@stephenie I may be a fan of drinking a beer or two here or there. But I was never a fan of it at DMS

@Patrickpleez1 as someone cleaning up the aftermath and dealing with the severe things that happened I'm not either

This has been one of the major changes @hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium that has happened that has upset me .. more people are now running businesses out of the space it seems instead of going there to meet friends and be creative

What I see less of nowadays is co-dependency on DMS

@ESmith I had an argument with someone a few weeks ago about this.

Also, given the reality that we're a communal workshop, I do not feel we should encourage loitering around at DMS all day

This has been one of the major changes @hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium that has happened that has upset me .. more people are now running businesses out of the space it seems instead of going there to meet friends and be creative

@Draco running business != those members that just want to use tools

1:02 AM

stop conflating your personal reason for DMS with everyone else

1:02 AM

many members want to make things for themselves and don't care to deal with others

1:03 AM

they want to take the class, make their things

There are many reasons for DMS including tools and socialization .. can we not have both?

not everyone that's there for personal reasons wants to socialize

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium in fact I'll bet that many members don't even adopt the maker identity

1

There are many reasons for DMS including tools and socialization .. can we not have both?

@Draco we aren't a social club; if people want to socialize sure, but don't conflate it with everything else people want to do

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium I am not saying handout a comprehensive list of pricing. But it’s good the guides know a lot of the pricing for questions. And most definitely the basic pricing.

I beg to differ with you @hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium.. part of our mission IS social collaboration (edited)

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium I am not saying handout a comprehensive list of pricing. But it’s good the guides know a lot of the pricing for questions. And most definitely the basic pricing.

@Patrickpleez1 my statement stands; it's nice, but it isn't where people retain the info

1:04 AM

needs to be provided in other means

1:04 AM

I beg to differ with you @hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium.. part of our mission IS social collaboration

@Draco It's not all of the mission though, and again don't force your reasons for DMS into other members' being here

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium I’ve had a lot of people in tours, that knowing pricing made or broke a membership sale.

No it isn't all of it .. correct

this is you conflating your reason to be here

1:05 AM

with others'

@Draco you can ... just don't expect accommodation ala a fully-equipped kitchen, lounge, super-comfortable chairs, the freedom to claim spots within the space, nor toleration of displacing other members who are just here to get work done (edited)

4

I'm saying we can have both

@Draco we already have it within reason

1:05 AM

what people have been calling "community loss" is their loss of a free ride

3

1:05 AM

which we never were

I'm not talking about a free ride or living at the space

but people tried to make it

I'm talking about interest groups/meetings

We could have had both. But people decided to make it their living spaces and showed that we were wasting money on supporting their living habits

meetups

and we have those, and nothing stops them

Except support

except they do

I think we can do better with supporting them

except we already do a lot

they wanted a farking outdoor gas grill on the north side and likely 240V outdoor outlets

nothing is missing from that perspective

I think we can do better with supporting them

@Draco supporting who?

except the unreasonable

@Patrickpleez1 Supporting meetups or interest groups ...

1:07 AM

for social collaboration

still not saying what support is "missing"

You mean like the writing group you used@to have meet here?

how about use committee funds to have a pizza party for the meetings, that'd get community involvment

we already provide meeting spaces, calendar, mailing lists, etc etc

1

@Draco you can already indulge in your notions of community as-is. there's nothing to prevent you from spending 4, 8, 12, 16 hours a day at the Space

No DMS acknowledges them .. but I think there can be much more to enable them

Next he's going to say we should allow alcohol at the space again

how about use committee funds to have a pizza party for the meetings, that'd get community involvment

@themitch22 oh yeah, this large pizza was a meeting that was consumed off site

1:08 AM

people ruined it for us

1:09 AM

No DMS acknowledges them .. but I think there can be much more to enable them

@Draco you're again just being vague and not actually giving an example. Note the several concrete examples above of how we already support and enable them

they wanted a farking outdoor gas grill on the north side and likely 240V outdoor outlets

@ESmith who wanted these things?

Stan at first

See there is even push back on me wanting to promote them here .. you all jump to alcohol or a fully-functioning kitchen? Why do you jump that far?

I'm sure Adnan et al were all for it too

Yeah. We can’t have that crap.

1:10 AM

I am not for living at the space.

Adnan lived at the space

See there is even push back on me wanting to promote them here .. you all jump to alcohol or a fully-functioning kitchen? Why do you jump that far?

@Draco because you've yet to state anything that's actually missing, and historically when this comes up it's all been unreasonable requests like those

Why is Interest Groups/Meetup == living at the space now ... @Patrickpleez1

@Draco because that was the take-away last time. But please offer concrete suggestions that don't revolve around quasi-residency

1

Coul lived inside the space

Why is Interest Groups/Meetup == living at the space now ... @Patrickpleez1

@Draco this is separate than what I’m taking to @ESmith about.

oh ok

Nothing drives away the normies that are our core demo like the sight of people actually or nearly living at DMS

2

I think if the space was close to an RV park it would have been great ... tell everyone to go there and walk to the space

@Patrickpleez1 where is a copy of the video you guys made?

So what exactly are you arguing about @Draco

I think if the space was close to an RV park it would have been great ... tell everyone to go there and walk to the space @Draco great for a very small subset of members, but not much of anyone else

@Patrickpleez1 where is a copy of the video you guys made?

@ferricyanide which one?

committee meetings and interest groups can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't break the by-laws

Coul lived inside the space

@pearce have I met this person?

wears the fancy red cowboy hat

1:13 AM

has a big dog

1:13 AM

was pr chair

I mean, honestly, what do you want to do to encourage community other than nebulous do more?

So what exactly are you arguing about @Draco

@themitch22 who knows; like usual refuses to give anything concrete. Something something we don't support sigs/meetups then when it's pointed out we do says well we don't enable them then when we point out we do rambles off. WHo knows at this point.

Sandy Lake RV park is $500/mo for a spot and that's close, then two walmarts near by

wears the fancy red cowboy hat

@pearce don’t think I’ve ever met him.

oh yeah Coul did he get banned or just dissapeared?

@themitch22 ... I'm getting resistance to most anything that even comes close to support social collaboration because there is a knee jerk reaction from them jumping to living at the space

I think if the space was close to an RV park it would have been great ... tell everyone to go there and walk to the space

@Draco The Space is near cheap motels. We already have members who live there and walk over.

@themitch22 just went off

The one from the picture it looked like you guys had lab coats and kevin t

@themitch22 ... I'm getting resistance to most anything that even comes close to support social collaboration because there is a knee jerk reaction from them jumping to living at the space

@Draco because you won't give us an example of something we don't already do, and because of that it reverts to what the discussion last time around was for "supporting" and "enabling" more groups

oh yeah Coul did he get banned or just dissapeared?

@themitch22 disappeared. But he's a Mark Havens in the making. Someone who should have been banned, but is likely to return.

you keep making this complaint

1:15 AM

despite the fact we do support and enable SIGs/meetups, and you can't think of anything to actually suggest we do more

@Draco

I'm getting resistance to most anything that even comes close to support social collaboration because there is a knee jerk reaction from them jumping to living at the space

Because about all the details you seem to offer are oblique harkback to how things used to be

but not far enough back

thus, we all look back to problems that we've gotten past

still under the hold my beer board

How about a website like meetup for makers? How about not thinking of an interest group as a mini-committee or a committee as a large interest group?

I'm guessing because group meetings and stuff end up getting into space politics and drama, Is that's why you quit@Draco ?

I quit for finance reasons and because I was getting alot of flack from certain people and decided to not come back because I saw some people get banned.

How about a website like meetup for makers? How about not thinking of an interest group as a mini-committee or a committee as a large interest group?

@Draco We already provide support for non SIG interest groups and meetings. Look at that robotics group that comes in. They can talk shop on our forum, they can ask for a mailing list etc. they can use our calendar to schedule events

SIG - no money/space allocated, committee - space and money allocation. I agree that meetup.com would be a good way to advertise for classes and meetups for DMS publically.

how about actually suggesting something we don't already do

1

If you already do it .. great .. what is the website?

DPRG is grandfathered into support but yeah I agree we do support SIG's

1:19 AM

calendar.dallasmakerspace.org

1:20 AM

it would be great to have meetups.com integration with our calendar

umm that would be a poor meetup.com

surprisingly a lot of people come from those sites.

1

oh nothing wrong with the actual meetup com

@Draco no sympathy on "people getting banned".

this is sounding more like a PR thing and not DMS thing

1:21 AM

well DMS PR

... and decided to not come back because I saw some people get banned.

@Draco so you have a problem with thieves and drunks and belligerents being shown the door?

I do have a problem with thieves and drunks and belligerents at the space

well nacho, but the rest I definitely think deserved it.

Nothing like some ol fisticuffs and drug-induced outbursts to frighten off the normies

2

@Draco so you have a problem with thieves and drunks and belligerents being shown the door?

@stephenie no one should have an issue with people who deserve it getting the boot.

1:22 AM

Nothing like some ol fisticuffs and drug-induced outbursts to frighten off the normies

@ESmith I can’t agree to this statement enough.

@Patrickpleez1 apparently Draco does have a problem...he said that's why he quit.

DMS fightclub events only happen off premises.

but I also have a problem with the authoritarian and fault based ideals that keep being perpetuated .. an atmosphere of bans .. mmmm

who's fault?

oh nothing wrong with the actual meetup com

@Draco which is what I said. There isn't a need to make a replacement. Writing software for our own version of it, when the actual one works just fine, is nothing more than a waste of time with an inferior result, that requires ongoing maintenance.

I mean, be excellent to one another suggests we should expect better behavior than you encounter at the post office, a public park, or in line at the megalomart

but I also have a problem with the authoritarian and fault based ideals that keep being perpetuated .. an atmosphere of bans .. mmmm

@Draco the people who get the boot usually deserve the damn boot...

Pointing out faults ... being captious

people keep yelling about an increase in bans. but they dont seem to understand that with more members, more shitbags come in

4

I see a ton of that this past year

but I also have a problem with the authoritarian and fault based ideals that keep being perpetuated .. an atmosphere of bans .. mmmm

So we're supposed to do what with thieves, drunks, aggressive people?

and unlike the prior board when a complaint came in they didn't sit on it

@Draco because when numbers grow so do problems. It’s math.

bring in a facilitator with an acoustic guitar?

1

and having to enforce all the rules that the hold my beer board decided not to enforce at all

we had a member that operated the lift with someone's head in it and was willfully causing damage, and the prior board just silently ignored it.

I think some of this happened in the past two years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory

Broken windows theory

The broken windows theory is a criminological theory that states that visible signs of crime, anti-social behavior, and civil disorder create an urban environment that encourages further crime and disorder, including serious crimes. The theory suggests that policing methods th...

1

The problem with drunks/theives/etc didn't happen suddenly

we had several fire alarms caused by drunk members they chose to ignore, even when their drunken antics caused more serious problems

we had a member that operated the lift with someone's head in it and was willfully causing damage, and the prior board just silently ignored it.

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium What. The. Fuck

no, but we have a board that enforces the rules

but it was addressed suddently

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium What. The. Fuck

@Patrickpleez1 aye

and harshly

the glorious "master mechanic" that if I ever see their face again I will ensure it's not in automotive

@themitch22 we haven't been looking for people to make examples of

The problem with drunks/theives/etc didn't happen suddenly

@Draco right. The HoldMyBeer(tm) Board ignored them, were friends with them.

So you cleaned house, did you?

1:27 AM

!members

There are currently 1779 members.

@Draco kinda what happens with perpetual thieves, violent members, constantly abusing equipment even after being banned from said equipment, sexual assault, the list goes on (edited)

@Draco "I don't like it" is fine, but just admit that's more or less all you've got

previous president was too busy conspiring against other board members and robbing the space to bother dealing with them

5

So you cleaned house, did you?

@Draco That about sums it up.

and better members are coming back because of it

5

Who was this "master mechanic"

Also, this is the longest conversation and most I’ve used talk.

1:30 AM

Discord

don't know his name, but will recognize the face if I ever see him again. Kris didn't bother getting his name, didn't bother handling it at all. I had originally grabbed a director because of the fact it was escalation with the guy screaming in automotive

Who was this "master mechanic"

@ferricyanide ? i missed the post

just asec

1:32 AM

we had a member that operated the lift with someone's head in it and was willfully causing damage, and the prior board just silently ignored it.

1:32 AM

@pearce

Oh, and who can forget Kris letting Grant use 102 without a certificate of occupancy? Then harassing Ethan for confronting her?

3

1:33 AM

Fish rots from the head down

micheal lass used to be at the space a bunch, and came back recently. sounds like him. he talked a lot about being a master mechanic

I haven't seen the guy in like a year

1:34 AM

we've had a few "master mechanics" in auto

micheal lass used to be at the space a bunch, and came back recently. sounds like him. he talked a lot about being a master mechanic

@pearce I don’t know if that would be him or not. He doesn’t give off the vibe a being an ass much.

generally you are correct, but he gets heated

1:36 AM

he would also be hammered at the space and try to work on cars while they were on jacks

generally you are correct, but he gets heated

@pearce could be. And I’ve seen that side a time or two.

at least that guy that used to hang around machine shop hammered doesn't seem to be around any more. had trouble walking around corners routinely.

1

had trouble walking around corners routinely. @ESmith

2:06 AM

I feel attacked

If you want a Social Club there is a IRS specific non-profit for it 501 (c)(7)

Oh, my this was a funny read this morning

Arguably, 501c7 is what we are already

I went to bed too early.

Is Tapper a member again?

apparently he is not. I knew he stopped showing up but didn't realize he dropped it

12:30 PM

gonna fix that

@SewingStuff If you could keep your worthless posts to this thread or off-topic and out of the computer committee thread it would be mildly appropriate. Thanks

1

Tough guy Raffi is going to send me a PM about this guys. I’d better watch out! (edited)

I blocked you so you're going to try to have fun on your own now

Heartbreaking

What did I miss to cause that?

I posted a clown picture in the mostly unused computer committee channel and he flipped his red wig and PMed me, posted two dumb posts in two channels, and blocked me. Lol

Interesting. That doesn’t seem like “excellent” behavior. These channels dint get used too often as whole. Any post is a good post here. We all just shoot the shit.

5:20 PM

Don’t

This was after he wasted everyone’s time for days defending Mark Havens then posted some dumb post about how he didn’t really trust him he was just defending him for days.

5:21 PM

I think it’s pretty comical. Raffi was a lot better when he just confined his activities to his dead committee.

Yeah. Mark messaged me about revoking my nomination of him.

5:24 PM

When I found out what happened after years of him being very coy about what happened, I had no choice but to hold my integrity.

4

2

@DJ Vance I mean I'd wish you'd understand how it's not appropriate to write 4 seperate posts in a row on a single topic, but hey we don't always get what we want.

3

You better be careful or you’re going to get a tough guy PM and a block too because Raffi is totally serious.

Can we all get blocked by people who make us roll our eyes?

4

I got a pretty good laugh out of it.

9:36 PM

I kind of expected it though. I’m surprised it took so long. Lol

Is being blocked a threat? Or a promise?

I don’t see why he should flip his lid

10:07 PM

I’m tempted to post a clown in there too now

It’s really a reward, if you think about it.

10:08 PM

I mean he should be grateful since I was the only one who responded and he did ask for a meme and that is one of the first results for “clown meme”

Yeah

hey lets keep discord better than talk

1

Aw Dad.

1

but if you want emotes yall gotta post em so i can add them

That is exactly my reaction. Lol

I assume we aren’t going to start meltdown Monday at midnight tonight?

Meltdown Monday? It's DMS Afterhours! https://coub.com/view/2b0hj2

Moustache

Heads Will Roll

by Moustache

11:07 PM

Get your dancewear on ... let loose @SewingStuff ...

I'm going to need some emotes @pearce

11:16 PM

1

11:17 PM

is all you are going to get

11:17 PM

here's the template in case you guys want to add some valuable ones:

1

they show up that big

11:17 PM

I'm okay with that

im not

11:17 PM

standards yo

ok

11:18 PM

you could make a gif tho

11:18 PM

I’ve got clown which is apparently all I need lately

1

I think I'll just use them as-is

11:22 PM

not as emotes

11:24 PM

Looks like I missed out on another worthless message

11:24 PM

Meltdown Monday startin’ early this week

only 35 mins

It's midnight!

I DISAGREE

I need a tiny little nuclear reactor

It was when I posted if the stupid lag had not happened

What is with this lag

discord is getting a lot of stress testing now days

️

♾️

‍

️

12:06 AM

️

Ooh crayon is a good one.

We need more positive like the DMS logo one

Then make them

A red stapler would also be appropriate at times.

Admins can add emojis but their not mind readers

also not digital artists

You do well with your art....

What does a stapler signify? If I do Art for a pie-in-the-face, would you actually use it?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vd4fj9Efl4s

Jesper Jessen

Office Space Milton stapler original

Idea: ... lets move the space to Garland!

3:24 AM

j/k

@Draco why are you clowning it up on Talk today? (edited)

1

He's gotta make sure acme can get their rent via donations for covid

I am getting a chance to trot out my old faithful eye roll emoji.

Is draco even helping them at all or doing what he normally does and just fights behind the keyboard?

1

9:05 PM

9:08 PM

10:01 PM

An actual picture of Draco

3

1

So. Random query indicative of nothing more than curiosity. What are the numbers for members with voting privileges looking like these days @ESmith ?

It was 290 last time I checked

appears to be ~301, if my count is accurate...

I was sorta hoping the number was shrinking...

I"m guessing if we've bothered getting voting rights, we're hardcore...

8:00 PM

That was my thought

Folder: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/19s9vdL9lWloWb3MYZNR2x4QbBXMsTg3B?usp=sharing Timeline: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1CXd0666LjrdN4sa9QnX7Ptlc851uQKjFsbNYZPH3XTE (edited)

Raffi

10:14 PM

Go away

1

10:14 PM

Stop throwing a tantrum

1

Unwilling to Accept Someone's Reality (aka disagreeing)

We don't want it here either. Learn when to let it go.

1

10:30 PM

You're annoying

Raffi, we aren't sympathetic to your digging of your own hole. Take your silence and be silent

10:34 PM

Otherwise, I'm sure quite a few of us can appeal to this discord server's owner that you are being a dick and you can get another vacay (edited)

I think he had made a new account

o.0

10:35 PM

Evading a ban?

10:36 PM

you are quite correct

10:36 PM

@pearce

I'm not avoiding anything. AFAIK my other account is not silenced, that was a 24 hour thing, but that's probably too pedantic, right Frederick?

10:44 PM

Seems like some gymnasts are going to put on a show

So why did you make a new account?

1

10:46 PM

Why not use your existing one?

10:46 PM

Could it be that you received a silence?

1

no

10:48 PM

lol

‍♂️

hrm, allow me to fix that problem for myself

You have been told no, why not just go to acme like everyone else that wants to do something?

2

1

Apparently DMS was Raffi's snickers bar.

I wish I could have a snickers bar...

For my edification ferricyanide is who?

chair of science

5:45 PM

i dont think ive ever caught a name, but i know the face

Adair

@john a gorman hi

Argue... Argue... Politics .. Discuss .. Cuss .. Possible Solution .. Possible Solution Shot Down .. Argue .. Name Call .. Ban

11:44 PM

Sounds happy to me

(edited)

5

1

Hearing every complaint and having a public meeting to ban those who violate the process is a much more transparent process than having the board be able to dismiss any complaint with absolute discretion. Especially with complaints where the board has a preexisting relationship with the person complaining and recommending a solution or the person tye complaint is filed against, since that creates a conflict of interest. Our feedback loop for the board and leadership right now consists of a vote once a year and the complaint/recommended solution process. I think that getting rid of the complaint process, or making it possible for all complaints to be quietly dismissed, is a bad idea. It further weakens the suboptimal feedback loop we have.

A future board member has someone give them a Formal Complaint .. they may decide to trash it with the other four board members never hearing a word of it. That is why they need to hear it in a board meeting and not be able to ignore it. Plus, there needs to be a record. (edited)

1

7:10 PM

It is super simple to dismiss Formal Complaints in board meetings ... less than a minute

1

I never thought I'd see myself on the same side of an argument as Nick Sainz. Guess I'm not the only one though. Here we can see a board member's response to when Jim and I were arguing on his SOI thread. This was part of an email notifying me of my two week silencing.

Never thought I'd see you'd demonstrate behavior that has come close to certain folks thinking you needed a welfare check.

3

Yeah, heard many people comment that you used to be pretty cool in person but quaratine made you kinda wacky.

Yes some things got prioritized and some are sitting till a board meeting.

I mean, I understand why you're being put in time out. I think this isolation has gotten to you. You've been quite argumentative and abrasive lately.

If Raffi gets a two week time out then why has Chris Fazio not been given the same treatment?

cause while Chris is annoying af, he didnt keep breaking the rules

A girl can dream.

9:19 AM

But that is fair.

yeah, Chris has overall been annoying, but he's currently following the rules in terms of not spamming the place. His opinions are his own etc etc, as long as he's not opening threads about them left and right and spamming copy/pasta

Freddy, I don't know what you're talking about with the welfare check. Maybe I missed something, but I have no problem paying my bills. I thought it was very revealing when someone said they thought I relied on the space to make money lol. As for the quarantine wackiness narrative: I've gotten positive feedback on the Dallas Coder Night thing I've been doing online during the quarantine. I've had a great time at philosophy every week. However, I definitely get very pissed off when people use bullshit arguments, like when Andrew LeCody asserted that 500g of Crisco with some unknown amount of weed in it found in Mark Havens' home was worth $10,000. Or when the board said that not having a meeting was in accordance with the rules, which it clearly wasn't. It also pisses me off when people abuse their power, e. g. Jim, Michael, and Freddy closing the PPE thread and then all the threads where I question that decision and other abuses of power. The one exception was Jim's SOI, but in that case I got silenced for two weeks, so I was silenced a different way. I also get pissed when people antagonize me, like when Sewing Stuff kept calling me a clown and even took it into the computer committee channel on here. That one really got to me. You guys can push that narrative all you want, and it sure is an easy way to dismiss everything I'm saying, but that's all it is: a way of dismissing. It doesn't actually refute anything I've said, though you might think it explains what my mood has been like. Jim, I haven't spammed. You closed the PPE thread right after I replied to it. I got silenced after criticizing you on your SOI thread. My first post when I came back, about the abuses of power, was closed. That prompted me to try again to have an open conversation, which was met with a prompt thread closure, which prompted.. and so forth until I was banned from Talk for 6 months. You can't silence someone fro the get-go and then say that you banned them for spamming. (edited)

look man, I went off what Haven's arrest paperwork said, chill out

5:32 PM

I assume you were there, that's how you know for a fact the content/purity

It never said 10 grand, and I don't think even you believed that figure.

it specified an amount of hash oil

lol

I asked someone in the industry how much that amount of hash oil was worth

You're not going to convince me when you yourself don't believe it.

ok?

5:34 PM

your ability to understand my own motivations, intent and reasoning better than myself is astounding

5:36 PM

Havens_Grand_Jury_Indictment_-_Copy.pdf

106.61 KB

5:37 PM

"A search of the location revealed 572.53g of Hashish Oil, 1,533.39g of marijuana, a Smith & Wesson 9mm pistol, a Taurus .22 caliber pistol, and several drug paraphernalia items."

5:38 PM

The facts are pretty clear, the police stated they found 572.53g of hashish oil? Are you disputing that?

5:39 PM

I asked someone who works in the legal industry the value of that much oil (though I said only 500g), they said about $10k. Are you disputing that assessment as being incorrect for the amount specified?

I'm enjoying this

2

Andrew's gone crazy all talking to himself

I'll admit, the $10k is likely wrong. Since I gave an inaccurately low amount and the person gave me a "ballpark" figure. Though I think it's safe to say it's accurate within a reasonable bounds for the purpose of discussion.

5:41 PM

@DJ Vance You stated authoritatively that it was "500g of Crisco", I assume you must have been present and witnessed it, or perhaps you have some other evidence to backup you claim?

Raffi.... Im pretty such when they said a welcare check. They meant to call and have someone go by your residence to make sure you are doing okay.

5:46 PM

https://nationalpolicesupportfund.com/what-are-police-welfare-checks-2/

npsf

What are Police Welfare Checks? | National Police Support Fund

Welfare checks are made when concerned citizens fear for the safety of a loved one or neighbor whom they fear may be in mortal danger.

haha, ok so for fun I decided to see if I could figure out the "street price" of 1,533.39g of marijuana, and google was quite helpful, it came out to $10,400

5:47 PM

roughly

5:47 PM

https://coloradocannabistours.com/guides/weed-measurements-guide/

Austa Anderson

Weed Measurements Guide: Marijuana Quantities, Weights & Prices

Marijuana is measured off an ounce. You can get marijuana in smaller amounts, one gram, an eighth, quarter, half-ounce, full zip & a QP. Learn more inside >

5:47 PM

it claims $800 per quarter pound

5:47 PM

I went with the lowest price per gram/pound on the page

Huh, its gone down since the last time i bought a 1/4 pound

1533 grams = 3.379 lbs, 3.379 / 0.25 = 13.516 quarter pounds, 13 x 800 = $10,400

5:48 PM

I rounded down to be safe

5:48 PM

@DJ Vance are you more comfortable with this valuation?

5:50 PM

that page also indicates that 1 gram is enough for a single joint, so the police are saying Mark Havens had 1,533 joints worth of weed. Now I'm not a pothead or any kind of drug expert, but that seems like a lot.

lol so the low end price ($20/gram for wholesale) is..... $10k for 500g

5:52 PM

so it was probably at least $10k worth of drugs, which seems a bit more than "just some personal use pot brownies" or whatever the excuse was

To play devil's advocate, $20/gram includes process controls, taxes, and probably testing for label requirements.

Also since this is texas and was several years ago, i actually bet it was higher.

true, regional pricing probably varies a lot

5:55 PM

here's a fun thought experiment, if someone said they had 90 bottles (750ml) of vodka "for personal use", would that seem reasonable?

5:55 PM

1 shot in the us is ~44ml, so a 750ml bottle has ~17 shots in it

5:56 PM

to have 1,533 shots (this is where things are fuzzy because I'm equating 1 joint to 1 shot), you'd need 90 bottles of vodka

5:57 PM

you know, since Mark Havens (according to that police statement) had enough marijuana for 1,533 joints

5:57 PM

@DJ Vance any thoughts?

5:58 PM

it's funny that trolls really prefer to debate on platforms they know they'll get censored (so they can claim it was because they were right and the man is keeping them down!), and not on uncensored platforms where people actually clap back

6:00 PM

well this was fun, back to watching Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid because I'm a weeb

I believe his argument is based on "all cops are bad" and they considered any weight of pot butter that was being made as all pot regardless if ratio. Which is silly. Because who would spend the time making the butter that tastes worse to not have a reasonable thc content in it

1

'all cops are bad' is probably the experience of someone carrying that much weed.

perhaps, but he seemed unable to articulate it so I just figured he was going with "blue hair man bad"

6:12 PM

but jokes on y'all, my avatar is a lie

I personally don't have a problem of the possession, but i do have a problem with lying about it. Lying about it is also much more recent

my hair has faded to bleached blonde since I can't get it dyed currently lol

dying it yourself is an option

and that is one of a handful of reasons i don't have colorful hair

right, the lying is basically a slap in the face, like we're all so dumb that we'd accept "it was just a small bit of personal use" when the amounts were so big

6:14 PM

yeah no, I'm not going to dye my own hair, I've seen how people fuck it up

6:14 PM

I'd rather be stuck looking like a surfer in Dallas

now's the perfect time to learn

I would agree with @ferricyanide. Don't care about possession. But the lies are telling

@DJ Vance I was talking about the type of welfare check where police come check on you because you seem to be exhibiting signs of distress.

6:23 PM

Also, I understand that you operate in your little world of raffi but the rest of us don't adhere to your logic. That being said, you can cry about the "abuse of power" thing all that you want but you still just end up looking like a clown

1

I am for legalization, but I am concerned about possession at that level. The reason is it shows he's dealing, not just consuming at a Willie Nelson level. We know he's listed the space as a business address, we know he's mailed packages from DMS. So we can't ever know if he was using DMS to deal. If however the cops ever find that he is then DMS is at risk.

don't forget Mark also started a non-profit and listed two members as directors for it without their knowledge and listed DMS as the registered agent

6:34 PM

again, without our knowledge or consent either

6:35 PM

and when asked about it his response was "sue me"

6:35 PM

so we had to file paperwork with the state to reject the registered agent thing

6:36 PM

but hey, I'm sure him being an asshole was somehow all to benefit the space

Well i find all that other behavior concerning as well.

how is it raffi saying it was crisco the first time I've heard that? (other than I don't really seek out this kind of crap...)

I think this might be the first time he's used the Crisco thing

6:40 PM

before it was just "blue hair man dumb, doesn't know value of stuff" type arguments

6:40 PM

and yeah, I don't know the value of that stuff, so I asked an expert

(edited)

but...does that mean raffi had to go to Mark to ask, and that's what he was told? Did he just pull it out of his...orifice?

no, I'm sure he's got some very clearly reliable source

6:42 PM

a man as smart as him wouldn't just blindly accept the story of someone without evidence

I think I'm sensing sarcasm...

6:43 PM

1

This is my position: You don't know how much THC was in the oil, so you don't know how much it would sell for. I respect your intellect, Andrew. That's why I think you're not being honest. He said it was Crisco, but whether it was Canola oil or something else isn't relevant to the price, just like all the discussion of other Mark-related stuff.

so how do you propose valuation be computed?

1

7:12 PM

you've yet to refute anything, as calling my argument "bullshit" is not a valid criticism

7:14 PM

we've had multiple attempts made to quantify it and all converge around $10k

7:14 PM

even if we're off by an order of magnitude, that's $1k, which seems quite excessive for just a brownie

I think one way to go would be to see how they tested the oil. See how potent the oil has to be in order to come back positive. Then you'll have a lower bound on the concentration instead of comparing it to what your friend sells at a weed shop.

7:15 PM

There is no need for assumption.

so your argument is that Mark made excessively weak oil?

I believe Texas is still zero tolerance on it. Or at least they were at the time. So concentration doesn't matter

1

7:16 PM

very weak

His claim was that he was in the middle of the process and had put an ounce in. Is your argument that that is false? If so, where's the evidence?

I posted the PDF

7:17 PM

I went with the evidence the authorities provided

Oh really, I didn't see potency there.

Also was it cannabutter or hash oil? Those are different.

I can see you don't follow the logic here, so lets try another path

potency

how about the 1,533 grams?

That's my question: potency

7:18 PM

Maybe he is a drug dealer, that doesn't contradict my claim.

the police found 1,533 grams of marijuna, which I assume is in plant form

My claim is more about you than it is about Mark.

a very low end estimate of it's value is again $10k

7:19 PM

humorously enough

You're doing that base on 1-gram joints, right?

no, I stated above, that's in quarter-pound amounts

7:20 PM

at the lowest price listed from the source

7:20 PM

effectively the "bulk" price

7:20 PM

the source page also stated that 1 gram = 1 joint, so the amount of weed was enough for 1,533 joints

7:20 PM

which again, seems a bit more than "just personal use"

Shit if he had 1500 joints there's no way he wasn't selling

If you were selling it by the gram it would have been way more than 10k price evaluation. 10k is like wholesale

inb4 it was just ditch weed and not even smokable, it's all a conspiracy by evil forces

Hell if he had 1/4 pound its selling or a month supply for a heavy smoker

he had >3lbs

7:22 PM

but hey, maybe that's all water weight, that's what I tell myself anytime the scale says I'm a bit heavier

7:24 PM

@DJ Vance thoughts?

Can we agree he had alot.

@nutterbutter I think most of us agree on that lol

just curious.... folks here seem really...um...against, I guess, selling. But how would we suppose recreational users (which many of us seem "ok" with) get such things without a "dealer"? Is amazon shipping that now? In Texas? (I don't really keep up...)

@A. Spencer(jast) it's really all about how Mark tried to spin it as "just a brownie" in his SOI

I mean, you can order anything on the internet, right?

pearce, that's assuming 1 gram per joint

In 2015, after my ex-wife reported that I was in possession of marijuana, I was formally charged for attempting to make pot brownies.

7:30 PM

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/2020_Statement_of_Intent_Mark_Havens#Full_Disclosure

2020 Statement of Intent Mark Havens

Yeah clearly he's being serious

7:30 PM

Clearly he's claiming there is a law specifically about making pot brownies

so you think that was a joke?

We can have a conversation about Mark's character in general, but my claim about the oil remains.

because I didn't.

yes I think it was a joke

nothing in that SOI was a joke

7:31 PM

except the SOI itself, I guess.

okay, we'll lets get off topic about it

so you're saying that parts of his SOI were not in good faith?

No potency, no price.

which makes it easy to discount anything IN it, and him as a candidate. Next topic.

You can joke in good faith

about being arrested for larges amounts of drugs, while running for board of DMS

7:32 PM

sure

7:32 PM

sure

Also he did a plea deal

7:32 PM

intent to distribute was dropped

So Mark told you it was just an ounce in the oil, but what about the 1,533 grams?

Please ask me for proof

7:34 PM

1,533 grams is a lot of weed

7:35 PM

enough for a long time

7:35 PM

Maybe more than enough

7:35 PM

And that's assuming no stems

7:36 PM

but what about the potency of the oil? How can you calculate the price without potency?

I feel I was pretty clear on how you do that, I can explain it again to you, but I can't comprehend it for you

I'm talking about the oil, so this "1533 grams = 3.379 lbs, 3.379 / 0.25 = 13.516 quarter pounds, 13 x 800 = $10,400" isn't relevant

yes, I can see you are confused on this

7:41 PM

see, we're talking about Mark's character, and how his SOI and his statements to you and others were crafted to paint a picture of a dude who had a small amount of weed for personal use

7:42 PM

and how that's clearly a lie

I'd like to see a brownie that big.

1

Its the size of a mattress

7:43 PM

1

Also i am a bit confused.... you typically don't make brownies with hash oil. You usually use the plant to make "butter" then brownies

7:43 PM

So were the police wrong or is he lying about making brownies altogether?

1

I believe legally any oil with thc was at that time considered hash oil

7:44 PM

I don't think they break it down into like canola oil, Crisco, salted butter, unsalted butter, etc

Crisco and all that would be "butter"

Okay let's speculate

Hash oil is prepared completely different

Andrew, I think your pricing for the weed is reasonable

7:46 PM

not the oil

Okay even ignoring the oil then, he lied about it on his soi. You are just moving to goal posts

"the period of community supervision has expired and the Court has not proceeded to an adjudication of guilt in this cause" https://obpublicaccess.dallascounty.org/PublicAccessEP1/CriminalCourts/PublicAccessProvider.ashx?action=ViewDocument&overlay=Print&overrideFormat=PDF

500g (by weight) of vegetable oil is about 0.422 gallons (0.125 lbs per gallon times 3.379 lbs), that's 6.7 cups of oil, a standard brownie recipe seems to call for 1/2 cup of oil, so that's enough for 13 batches of brownies, but Mark only put in an ounce of weed (edited)

Maybe he's bad at recipes

My point was about the oil, not his SOI in general.

so your claim is that he makes nearly useless pot brownies, and don't worry about the unrelated large amount of weed

Dani tried to add a tablespoon of salt to one of our dinners because she read teaspoon wrong

Mark lied to your face man

7:49 PM

if he told you it was just an ounce, and that it was personal, that was a lie

I mean I doubt people making pot brownies are going for that gourmet brownie experience, oil vs butter probably isn't a concern.

1

My claim is that he was using the oil to store the weed without having it lose its potency. You have no evidence that that's false. All you have are your biases caused by your negative emotions toward him from previous stuff that I really know nothing about. And I don't really care since it doesn't tell me how much the oil would see for.

do you honestly believe that the 500g was mostly oil and have very little weed in it?

That's a whole new argument

lol you arent helping mark here raffi...

but the oil!

I'm not trying to help Mark

My claim is that he was using the oil to store the weed without having it lose its potency. You have no evidence that that's false.

@DJ Vance that's not how this works, you have yet to present a more plausible argument than the ones laid out before you

Yes, exactly, Pearce

hrm...

My point is that we don't know. You're the one making the concrete claim that the oil was worth 10 grand.

ok, so to be clear, you don't like my or anyone else making a guess at the valuation of the oil, but the valuations for the weed itself are reasonable?

occams razor bro...

The percent THC in the weed is more or less known. In the oil it isn't. Simple

LOOLOL

ok cool, so we can all accept that he probably had somewhere in the neighborhood of say $10k in weed?

ohrly?

@DJ Vance does that sound like a fair assessment of the amount?

Yes.

excellent

My claim is was about the weed,

7:55 PM

*the oil lol

7:55 PM

inb4 Freudian slip

ok, so knowing that he had such a large amount, which scenario is most likely: 1. Mark had a very small amount of THC in the oil and was making brownies for personal consumption 2. Mark was making a lot of brownies

7:56 PM

(very very weak brownies)

Those are not the only options, so I won't entertain the question.

@DJ Vance why the fuck does the potency matter? Even if it's shitty butter he had dealer quantity in his possession. That's like saying, sure he stole the car but he didn't drive it that far.

I think there is overlap in dealer quantity and personal use quantity.

@DJ Vance I'll restate it this way, do you feel it's fair for Mark to portray the arrest and case as "just personal use" or similarly downplaying at the amounts?

raffi do you have first hand knowledge of the quantity or potency of what mark had?

Given that the intent to distribute part was dropped, I think it's reasonable to say that the case was for personal use.

it could have been dropped because he gave up his supplier though

Willie Nelson was busted with his personal stash out on I-10 once. He had a pound. Are you honestly saying that Havens has a personal stash bigger than Willie Nelson

you have no evidence that's not the case

Or he plead out for a lesser charge

Correct

so since we can't know the specifics of why the case was dropped, it can't be used to determine if the amount was personal or dealing

People plead out to lesser charges all the time

Correct

the only objective metric we have, is the actual amounts of material, both the weed and the oil (edited)

And the conviction, we have that too

Yup, but also that amount changed as the case went on.

based on the amount of weed alone, would you say it's reasonable to call that "personal amounts"

You are talking out your ass

8:01 PM

He's a convicted felon drug dealer

8:01 PM

And a known fraudster

8:03 PM

https://youtu.be/o-jXtz6aXZk

aFilmNoob

2 POUND JOINT - 4:20, 4/20 420, 2013 - Golden Gate Park, Hippie Hi...

oh okay

That's a 2 pound joint. Mark had an extra pound

oh so Mark only had less than 2 joints worth

1

But sure, it was personal use...

lol

8:05 PM

Here it says POSS CS PG 1 < 1G. That stands for possession of a controlled substance in the penalty group one in an amount less than one gram.

3-4-2019_-_Order_-_Dismiss-Discharge_Probation_-_Crim_Min_DC_F1533155_-_.pdf

655.97 KB

Why the fuck are you defending his possession conviction by splitting hairs over if the hash oil would just make you a little high or really high?

I'm more attacking bullshit arguments than defending him as a person

It's ok officer I know she's a hooker, buy I didn't fuck her I only got a blowjob

LOL

It's ok officer I stole the car but I wasn't speeding so it's all good

@DJ Vance if it makes you feel any better, I'll amend my statement to "Mark had $10k worth of weed" instead of hashoil

That's what the fuck I'm doing. Why the fuck I'm doing it is because it bothers me to see a whole group think together and think poorly in a context where reasonable discussion is very important like the context of an election.

It's ok officer I just put the coke on the mirror, I haven't snorted all the lines (edited)

this parsing is hilarious

Andrew, yeah, if you down from 20K to 10K i think that's great.

It's ok officer I robbed that store but I only stole 10k not 20k so we're good

But really it's more like "at least 10K" if you include the oil

"we don't have an assay so we can't use median values to make an estimate"

@DJ Vance great news, that's what I already said and which you've been railing against

Remember, his arrest was before weed was legal anywhere so the value was likely much higher then

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/mark-haven-statement-of-intent-bod-2020-2021/70313/52?u=andrewlecody

And I think 3.3 pounds of weed is a lot, but very possibly for personal consumption, especially if you're consuming it with someone else who smokes a lot

so you've been calling out my "bullshit argument" but were wrong about it the entire time

8:11 PM

because I never said $10k worth of oil, I said oil and weed

Nah, you said 10K for the oil. That's bullshit (edited)

are you not reading the link I just posted?

8:11 PM

you can see for yourself the post wasn't edited and is from March

I can't, but you even on here said you asked your friend specifically about the oil

@DJ Vance it seems your argument is bullshit. The potency of the weed doesn't matter and the quantity is clearly greater than personal use

perhaps, but you started railing against my "bullshit argument" based on that post

Raffi, I think its hilarious that you believe yourself to be qualified enough to call anyone's arguement bullshit.

It's the potency of the oil that matters

1

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/mark-haven-statement-of-intent-bod-2020-2021/70313/58?u=andrewlecody

8:12 PM

see, right here, just after my post

8:13 PM

my post is very clear, that the oil and weed are at least $10k

the validity of what I say does not depend on any qualification of mine, Freddy, that's an ad hom fallacy.

1

@DJ Vance if potency matters then why didn't marks lawyer get him off everything because it was just skunk weed

1

and you took offense to that statement, but now you're trying to say I said something I didn't and that you are taking offense to a statement you think I made back in that thread

Welp I can't go through on Talk to see where you said the oil alone was 10K, so...

8:13 PM

hahah

I never said on talk the oil alone was $10k

@DJ Vance having skunk weed isn't a defense in any court of law. The potency doesn't fucking matter

1

the proof is right there in the linked thread

he can't logon talk

8:14 PM

he got in trouble

ah, I'll screenshot it

I think I understand what's happening here! Raffi got a hold of some potent weed.. that's the only way his argument makes sense

I think Raffi might have smoked to much weed in general cause it sure doesn't seem to have helped his reasoning skills

@DJ Vance you then said:

Or Mark was/is his dealer and he feels the need to defend him

8:17 PM

weird how we went from "agree[ing] on the facts" to "bullshit argument"

I can't find where you said it on Talk, but you literally said it earlier here on Discord.

8:17 PM

I can't log in to Talk

yes, I believe the oil was worth $10k and the weed another $10k

Because you know, I'm suspended

my statements on talk clearly state that the oil and weed were worth $10k at minimum

Oh okay, so you did say the oil was worth 10K

@DJ Vance what did you pay for your hash oil?

That's what's bullshit

how would you know raffi?

man this is some great mental gymnastics to watch

how can you say that something is or isn't anything?

Is it green hornet or purple haze?

you buy hash oil regularly since this case came to be?

Like this: that claim is bullshit

@DJ Vance you said "Mark claims the oil and weed were for brownies for personal consumption." do you believe that was a lie?

from mark's dealer?

8:19 PM

Raffi your logic is bullshit

8:19 PM

see i can do it too

Oh okay

I'm guessing green hornet based on the complete disconnection from logic

1

lol

8:21 PM

i have to agree the mental gymnastics are quite special

Andrew I do believe Mark's claim, but it's not a strong belief.

2

ok, so again to be clear

Like if I had decent evidence to the contrary I'd probably change my belief.

you agree the weed is worth maybe $10k (give or take), and that it was also for personal consumption?

Yes

ok cool

8:22 PM

good to know you lack the ability to reason effectively

oh okay

1

I revise my statement, I'm guessing grape ape

8:22 PM

https://www.maggiesfarmmarijuana.com/manitou-springs-rec-menu/

Manitou Springs Rec - Order for Pickup - Maggies Farm Marijuana

Maggie's Farm Manitou Springs, CO recreational marijuana flower, concentrates, edibles, topicals. Order online, pay in store. Clean Green organic outdoor grown marijuana in Colorado.

Glad we can agree the 10k valuation was baseless bullshit

I imagine even in oil weed loses potency and effectiveness, so unless there's some way to store $10k of weed long enough for one person (or say one person and their spouse) to consume it before it goes bad, it would be a horrendous waste of money to buy $10k worth of weed (edited)

8:24 PM

so either Mark had $10k to absolutely just throw in the trash, or something else was going on

Well, Maggie's farm is getting$70 for 1g of grape ape, so $70x500

Well I don't find imagination on that front even remotely useful

can you think of a reason why someone would have $10k worth of weed for personal use and it not mostly go to waste?

Of course blue rax is only$60 but it's hybrid

Maybe the person got tired of buying and decided to grow?

now I'm not a plant expert, but usually you use seeds for that

I have a cousin in California who grows for personal use

@aceat64 obviously cause he was giving some to raffi!

hahaha

perhaps it was all seeds!

I moved to Texas in January 2019 so

8:26 PM

lol

8:26 PM

perhaps he was dealing!

but you couldn have known him before...

perhaps

8:27 PM

lol

8:27 PM

Perhaps!

8:27 PM

Perhaps he was a druglord, using his pistol for drug dealy stuff!

of course, that would be a lot of seeds, you'd be growing a lot of plants

Perhaps a heavy smoker puts 1 gram in a joint!

everyone knows you gotta have protection brah

Freddy I'm not surprised

ah yes, perhaps Mark was just constantly stoned

8:28 PM

that's something we want in a person in charge of DMS, for them to be not-sober while at the space

@DJ Vance why do you believe that Havens is the victim here?

stfu I'm not defending Mark

I believe he has an irrational hatred of some people at DMS

Could be, perhaps

well this has been a fun exercise

I think it's more like I have a rational hatred for irrational arguments

@DJ Vance if you are not defending him then why are you splitting hairs about how high you could get off his product

if only you were better equipped for discerning irrational from rational

8:31 PM

you could be quite effective at changing minds then

"no u"

insults are more fun when they're higher brow

8:32 PM

although I do love using bless your heart on people who don't know that one

haha

I actually don't think this conversation was useless

we use it all the time at Wasteland Weekend, have heard people say "The Texans are so nice, they're always telling us 'bless your heart'"

I think we figured out exactly where we disagree: whether 3.3 lbs can be for personal use.

oh cool, good to see you have caught up with the convo

oh okay

but we're on bless your heart now

Oh did you change it midstream?

8:34 PM

my b

I think we really just further confirmedthat you lack the ability to discern rational from irrational and that you might get your weed/weed products from mark

weird, I've heard that somewhere before

there was a TV commercial that used it

8:35 PM

very popular

8:35 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fDkHzOtgrk

Hms Videos

HMS Commercial - Bless Your Heart

Willie Nelson recorded a song with snoop dog called roll me up and smoke me when I die. When Willie was busted out in South Texas he had less on him than Mark... Let's think about that for a moment here

3

Mark Havens isn't my favorite candidate, I'd rather vote for Raffi.

1

Mark Havens isn't my favorite candidate, I'd rather vote for Raffi.

@nutterbutter

8:47 PM

That bad?

Andrew, you’ve really blossomed into quite a narcissistic prince of deniability and lies. I suppose I expected that you would develop a reputation for turning on people and for perpetuating a culture of hate mongering. My impulse is to blame your adolescent leadership experience as a CEO in Eve Online, except everybody know DMS isn’t a video game. No, it’s all my fault, I suppose. I set a really poor example for you while I was fighting with members of the DPRG in 2010. I never thought you’d follow in my footsteps to the ends of glorifying the darkest part of my leadership style from back then. Now, it’s 2020, and you’re blackmailing, intimidating, and suing people, just like I did whenever I let my ego lead my decision making instead of my conscience.

9:30 PM

Now here we are. You’ve passed around an inditement like it’s a judgement, knowing full well that there’s court papers that reduced and then dismissed all charges. I grew weed as a hobby in 2012 and 2013. Cops found bud, leaves, stems, and seeds in 2015. Most of what was found wasn’t smokable, but granted, we had enough pot to keep a wife and me stocked up for a while without needing or even knowing a dealer. And the bottle of Crisco they found that I would make brownies with? I used an ounce of weed to make it. Sorry to disappoint you. But, as much as you’d love to label me some sort of dangerous drug dealer to satisfy that chip on your shoulder and keep me off the board, it’s not going to happen. You are now embarrassing yourself. You certainly know my hydroponic and aquaponic background. My libertarian views and experiences with pot haven’t been a secret since I was 19. But now that I’m running for Board, you’ve suddenly decided that I’m a drug dealer? Honestly? Earnestly? After trying to manipulate me on this issue, presumably to keep me from running? I ran BECAUSE you tried to manipulate me, dude. I ran and outed my own pot history BECAUSE you made your petty intentions pretty clear when you PMed me in January. And everyone I trusted outside your little circle already had the whole story long before I decided to run. The WHOLE story has never been a secret. You know I’m not known for keeping secrets. Not even from you. None of the nonsense that you ever spout off about me has ever fit the greater context of reality. And it’s pretty clear to me and a great multitude of others that you are being a mean, petty, manipulative, and self-serving child.

9:30 PM

You have set an example for others that rewards contempt, deception, half-truths, and FUD. And you have come to despise me and spread poison because you feel you deserve to be founder of Dallas Makerspace. Son, maybe I was in denial when we first met, or maybe I just didn’t have a whole lot to work with in terms of willing leadership, but I remember sometime in 2011 or 2012, as soon as I heard you speak to your leadership motivations about Dallas Makerspace, and how you wanted to be the next Napoleon or the next Caesar, I felt you and I had a serious mismatch of values. My values are focused on others, not the self glorification of accomplishments. It’s about achieving goals for the community, not to satisfy my own ego. I should have dropped you sooner. But that’s why I began mentoring Robert Davidson and stopped spending time with you. There might still be hope for Robert, but you son are a lost cause, and I think you already know it. At your age, if Eve Online and Dallas Makerspace have been your only notable leadership venues in life, then I think that says it all.

9:31 PM

All this said, when the time comes, if we are ever forced to work together again, I will be true to my word. I will forgive and forget your past character assignations against me. But you need to work on your eye contact. Avoiding eye contact often communicates feelings of shame. If you are ashamed to look me in the eye, you won’t have to be if I’m elected. But just because I forgive and forget your past transgressions against me doesn’t mean I have no memory of your values or abilities. You will never be my first choice for any leadership role beyond a technical team lead. We need good technical team leads. And you are probably one of the top 20 team leads I know. Hell, look what you did for Dallas Makerspace. Good work during those first few years. Thank you. I just wish you could have grown with the organization.

lol Mark I don't know who you think you remember, but it ain't me

I think you know that’s not true.

Mark, it makes a great story. Albeit a not very believable one.

Freddy, I have nothing to prove. Certainly not to you.

Is the board of directors campaign still going? When are elections?

You don't need to prove anything to me, but you could at least come up with something better than that. People who haven't observed you don't know what you are...

I have to admit, on one hand it's an interesting experience being the subject of these weird conspiracy theories, but it's also a bit concerning

@aceat64 I think you should take it as a compliment. You are a threat to him.

lol

@AGr From Erik on talk: "EDIT 3: I have suspended the entirety of the election timeline. I will reschedule it once we have clarity from state and local officials on when and how we might re-open the Makerspace."

Andrew is spouting misinformation. He is certainly a threat to my reputation. And he’s been somewhat successful with you, Freddy, for sure.

Mark, who do you think searched up the documents...

9:39 PM

It sure wasn't Andrew...

9:39 PM

Nice try though.

LoL... doesn’t matter.

what exactly was misinformation?

Documents are public record.

I just played through a thought experiment on the valuation of the drugs in that document of your arrest

9:41 PM

big fan of /r/theydidthemath/

Indeed. Must have been a fun fantasy for you, Andrew.

it was pretty fun

I think any rational individual can agree that having a stoner as a board member who got popped with distribution weight ain't what anyone is on board with

9:42 PM

I made a funny hahaha

Except that is a false narrative, Freddy.

Is it?

Yes.

Sorry bud

9:43 PM

The evidence log suggests otherwise

this was a good way to pass the day, since I couldn't get much done due to rain

Yet, the DA agrees with my narrative. Internet searches won’t tell the whole story.

Good for him, doesn't change the fact about what the police seized....

But feel free to make up any other narrative. But anything you dream about will be fiction.

You can spin it any way you want, but that part is written down on paper

There’s no shame in having pot. You against legalization?

Nice try at redirection.

You know what else is written down on paper? My case being dismissed.

lol

As if that makes you any less guilty

9:46 PM

"i was a good boy and didnt get caught on probation"

9:46 PM

....

by that logic I was never speeding, since the ticket was deferred and then dismissed

Guilty of having pot? I think I’ve made that pretty public.

Take some ownership (edited)

I just did.

You made some half assed excuse that you wouldn't have gotten caught if it hadn't been for a mean ole wifey

9:47 PM

Thats just plain sad

9:47 PM

"I did not have sexual relations with that woman"....comes to mind

Oh yes, I was seriously betrayed... because having pot was a crime. It just isn’t one that is serious.

9:49 PM

Pot is not a serious crime anymore fellas. It’s a speeding ticket now. And if you grow it or make brownies, you might even get arrested. But it’s not a serious crime.

Eh, ok, breaking the law just a little bit is ok.

1

That is the crux of the issue

If you have a problem with that though, do something about it.

It's ok to break the law that I don't agree with

No, it’s a risk.

9:50 PM

Pot that is.

9:50 PM

Not crimes in general.

Applying that to DMS business, this is what makes you an absolutely terrible candidate. Supposing you continue to use.....

LoL

9:51 PM

Dude, you’re a nobody.

1

Oh?

Stop talking.

I think I've found the right issue here

You’ve demonstrated contempt to the membership.

9:52 PM

And you’ve run people off.

Oh?

9:52 PM

Do tell

And was forced to quit as “CTO”...

There was no force to quit

3

Oh?

That's completely incorrect

wait, Raffi is that you?

You has formal complaints filed against you yes?

And was forced to quit as “CTO”...

You are quite ill-informed

Formal complaints had fuck all to do with my resignation

My narrative is false?

9:54 PM

Oh, well... the public documents tell me something different. But surely you know more than me.

Which documents would that be?

9:54 PM

I'd love to see one that said I was forced to resign or terminated

maybe he means the Form 428 (Rejection of Appointment)

haha

Documents like the meeting minutes?

9:54 PM

Oh yes, the other false narrative

Seems like someone has a problem with reading comprehension

Nice soap.

still would love to hear why you told us off about that whole thing

Really? What would you know about it? You weren’t part of that venture.

neither were the two people you listed as directors

1

But I expect you thought i was a threat. Wanting to help other Makerspaces and all.

I think the better question is why he felt the need to tell me I'm a nobody after I pointed out that his moral terpitude issues would make him a terrible candidate. (edited)

Andrew, that’s misinformation also.

except I've consistently helped advise loads of other spaces, and answered questions openly and honestly

9:57 PM

oh, so you're saying these two people lied straight to my face?

Yes, but when I do it, you betray our friendship.

G'nite kids, don't go breaking no laws til the morning.

night john boy

No, I’m saying you Andrew, lies.

9:58 PM

Lied.

about what?

Well, these days, I guess I wouldn’t know where to start. Being a founder of Dallas makerspace, for example.

lol

I mean, Jesus dude.

I honestly don't understand your issue here

When I talked to Oguz and Romeo... two of my best friends by the way, they said you intimidated them and didn’t want to be part of the makerspace incubator anymore.

hahah bullshit

10:03 PM

@Nodoze

when was DMS an incubator?

Oh really?!!

Mark, you do realize Romeo is actually one of my best friends, right?

If that’s true, than he would be playing us both, or you are lying. And I tend to side with Romeo.

10:05 PM

Oguz formally stepped down from that disaster in 2016.

10:05 PM

And it was a disaster because of your bullshit.

10:05 PM

So, thanks for that.

lol dude you are so full of shit

@mark.randall I guess you are high again. Still a crime in Texas by the way.

Really? What would I have to gain by putting down people I know if my intention was malicious?

10:07 PM

I could have used random names.

you used people you thought wouldn't mind it

@mark.randall I suppose that you could add people to create the appearance of legitimacy

You’ve got that right. Because they agreed to it already.

Since you don't have any of that

and now you're straight up lying about them wanting to be a part of it and that I somehow intimidated them

10:08 PM

I didn't even know about your thing until they came to me asking for help about it

Bullshit.

yes, your actions were

This is the problem right here.

2

I let this issue pass years ago... because this drama is disruptive.

@mark.randall who to believe, the guy that was proven right about Kris Anderson's fraud and has been transparent in everything he's done or the drug dealer who commits fraud? Tough call there

The issue goes further back than this bullshit.

The drug dealing issue or the fraud issue@

Both issues are fiction.

man, I stepped back from leadership because I just wanted to be able to make stuff, I only partially got dragged back in to deal with the fraud

The court records seem to indicate otherwise chief

Great... stop pulling me into your drama, Andrew...

Actually that was Raffi

10:14 PM

He was defending your conviction because it was only skunk weed

yup, I'm content to not talk about this stuff, Raffi said my argument was bullshit, I don't bring this stuff up myself because it's just not important to me

But then I guess he was only doing that because you are running for the board

Court documents show there was no dealing, sport.

10:15 PM

Great. I’ll mind your own business, if you mind your own business.

10:15 PM

my own business

stop trying to fuck up DMS and I won't even think about you

You do the same, and I won’t think about you either.

I really don't care what you do otherwise

10:16 PM

clearly I have taken residence in your mind lol

Lol as I noted before Andrew, he's threatened by you

Oh, you have... certainly. I was once really proud of you. Still am in many ways.

1

creepy

1

You mean the deferred adjudication where you plead out to a lesser charge

Mark, do you still smoke weed and keep it ?

Hard to have any respect for someone with your history and record

Yes, my choice was risking life in prison... or... dropping the charges after some community service. Easy choice.

Or you could have not been in possession of all that weed (edited)

Yes, probably foolish in this state. But I took that risk.

Which is why you would suck as an office or director at the space

It was what ... 2kg in total?

You have shit judgement and zero credibility

Apparently that’s not true for everyone. But thanks for your perspective.

10:20 PM

Who are you again? Your real name?

True, I think you have Raffi and dracos votes

HAHA

10:20 PM

well all know that Draco doesn't get a vote

10:21 PM

He got one!

Why you want my name? We gonna start a charity together?

2

3

1

You guys are hilarious.

Hey Mark, I hear ACME might agree with your moral standards, plus all your really important buds are there

Been a real hoot. Hate this platform, personally. Not that IRC was any better.

Be sure to take raffi with you

10:23 PM

he seems to idolize you for some reason

We’ve never met Freddy. But the stories are true. If we ever meet in person, you’ll probably end up being one of my best friends eventually.

oh?

Try me.

what qualities do you have to offer?

In person.

and we have met in person

Not really. I’ve heard you say “excuse me”

i found you to be everything the rumors said about you.

No conversations though.

10:27 PM

I’m sorry, if we did have a conversation, I don’t remember.

@yashsedai is very forgettable

1

lol

10:27 PM

its true, my presence is quite small

I had a conversation with you once, you creeped me out.

I get creepy a lot... it’s in my public profile.

oh hey, Mark do you have that spreadsheet where you made assessments of the membership on stuff like "attitude"?

From 2010?

yeah

10:29 PM

I think Haley had a 1

1

That's klassy

I haven’t thought about it in years...

A spreadsheet list of members...not creepy at all.

1

Haley and me did get into it back then, and I even filed a lawsuit against her. But it was resolved and worked out through a mutual friend one of those Thursday in the parking lot..

super klassy

Not really, no.

10:32 PM

It should have been handled better.

Ah yes, the famous lawsuit you threatened me with for speaking up about your consistent bad behavior. We didn't resolve anything, dude. You whined at me in the parking lot for like an hour and I'm pretty sure these are the first words I've said to you since.

3

no wonder he gave you a 1 for attitude

I'm a hellion! Rar!

It’s not famous, and it’s a decade old memory that apparently meant more to me than it did to you, although I hardly remember the details of it now. I remember it being resolved. If it wasn’t for you, that’s not my problem anymore.

11:47 PM

I still regret kicking you out of that photo though.

11:48 PM

You were around a lot before we got going... always involved... kicking you out of that photo was a mistake.

11:49 PM

And I’m sorry I did that to you. I didn’t mean to make you feel like you weren’t important to the space. You were.

Look, this is ancient history, and I appreciate that. But having moved past it and having it resolved are different.

11:49 PM

I accept your apology, thank you.

11:51 PM

The thing is, that photo was not the issue. It was the harassment, and the misuse of power.

I suppose moving past it was a better way of describing what happened.

11:54 PM

I’m not sure we are going to agree on perspectives... I regret some of the tactics I used with the DPRG, for sure...

I certainly agree. I'd appreciate if you didn't imply that our mediation ended in us coming to any sort of agreement.

Perhaps my unspoken agreement was not to pursue the issue afterwords. And I didn’t.

11:56 PM

I only recall putting it behind me after that.

Unspoken agreements are not agreements. That's called an assumption. And I think that speaks to the real reason we're in DMS politics chat talking about this. How many people do you consult before deciding something is ok, or do you just assume?

I make lots of assumptions about things every day... I might not be using all the best words to describe everything... but if it helps keep this in the past by agreeing that we didn’t agree to anything, I’m okay with that.

Cool. Now, can you admit to defrauding the space? Honestly, the damage you've done to other members is more important to me. And I know it's more relevant to this channel.

1

I never defrauded the Space, sorry.

12:05 AM

That’s simply another false narrative.

Dude, the more you cry "fake news" the less people are going to believe you.

2

Haley, the more that complete strangers and estranged friends make false and baseless accusations about decade old drama, the more people seek me out to understand what the hell is going on.

How is it false and baseless? The paperwork is all posted for everyone to read. I mean one side has evidence the other has claims of fake news.

8:00 AM

I mean for fuck sake, you start trying to claim you successfully mediated a dispute with someone and moments later they are here saying "no, you didn't" You admit to having kept a spreadsheet of members to track their attitude, like some kind of stalker hit list. You deny the severity of your arrest and deferred adjudication, and yet the court papers are publicly available... I'd ask what you are smoking, but we already know that, it's in your arrest record...

My estranged former friends and their friends who are strangers to me are free to continue with false narratives that fill in the gaps with fantasy and other made up bullshit. If you are compelled to do so, I actually advise you continue to make up bullshit and pose other false narratives. Any support you offer me will surely alienate you from your friends, just as it did with Raffi and Draco. Except alienation is just the beginning. You’ll be mocked, persecuted, and harassed too. So keep all the bullshit coming for your own the sake. But if someday you accidentally say something that might be interpreted as supportive of someone like me, and your “friends” end up turning on you because of it, please don’t quit DMS like many others have. You won’t have to look long to find an alternative group of people at DMS that will accept and respect you for exactly who you are, without feeling pressured to be someone you’re not.

I've read about and experienced enough Draco personally to know if that's your support then you don't have any. Jury is out on Raffi. He's nice in person but damn is he an edgelord when he's on the keyboard. I think he just needs this covid shit to be over and he'll be ok again. As it stands I don't see myself ever sinking to the level where I would proclaim anything supportive of someone like you.

Thanks for your candor, whoever you are.

Mark, my issue with you is that you are running for the board and all these people bring up valid questions about your ethics and behavior. All your answers either brush asside your poor behavior or they try and throw the blame on the people that pointed out your behavior. I have yet to see any meaningful answer from you. The answers we do get are trite and sarcastic and don't address the behavior in question. In short it seems clear that you have not changed your ways on any of the matters anyone has reported about you.

These people bring up neither valid questions or concerns. I’m happy to discuss reality with anyone. I have, and I do.

9:21 AM

But I won’t be addressing the details of a fictional account. Obviously, I can’t. You’ll have to get those details from whoever made up the bullshit.

See, there it is right there. Right here in this thread You brought up the lawsuit with Haley, she shows up and says your story is false. And now you imply it's not a valid question and tell me to get the details from whomever made up the "bullshit" but as we can see right here in your own responses, that's you...

9:38 AM

Bless your heart...

Soooo if 3.3 pounds is personally use, how much did/do you smoke a day? And how do you afford such an expensive habit?

3

Wow. I almost hope that drugs are responsible for the pages of incoherent rambling that I scrolled past. If not you should probably get that checked out. Are you going to stop or reduce your drug use if elected to the board or is this what we should expect from you as a board member? (edited)

11:37 AM

What? Why? Why did you try to sue Haley Mark?

hey now, that might be deemed an invalid question

Haha

I called Mark out on the forums because he threatened me, and since he was on the board I felt so unsafe and unwelcome that I had to quit the space. He didn't like that.

The fact he fraudulently listed members on his other non-profit is enough on its own to show he has no sense of morals nor decency to run a legitimate one. And inb4 he says that's a lie: the rejection of appointment in the DMS board minutes, the state forcefully dissolving the nonprofit because of fraudulent appointments, and literally everyone but him from that time says otherwise

There was no grievance policy back then. It was the wild west.

Remember that time Mark trolled the group building face shields by trying to pretend like he was involved and helping?

1:54 PM

https://github.com/mrhavens/maker-community-ppe

mrhavens/maker-community-ppe

Dallas/Fort Worth area initiative to save lives by donating Maker made PPE. - mrhavens/maker-community-ppe

We created a grievance process because of your bullshit, Haley.

even changed the git commits to his name, very classy

1:55 PM

inb4 Mark's defense is that the license allows it

LoL... more false narratives. I promoted this and gave you full credit.

why not fork the repo and keep the commit history, as is standard for open source forks?

(He threatened me because I tried to talk him out of committing DMS to a sketchy financial deal, but I'm sure he doesn't remember that.)

My supporters already think your the Antichrist. But yeah, I gave you full credit anyway.

why even have the repo anyway, the entire point of it being open source was so other groups could do a similar thing, not to weirdly try to split the location of documentation for one group

1:57 PM

of which you are not a part of and have offered no help towards

You made it public domain... and said anyone could use it for whatever they wanted... apparently that didn’t extend to me.

1:58 PM

You wanted credit. I have you credit.

again, I made it public domain for a pretty clear reason

1:59 PM

it's not about credit, it's about not trying to confuse people

1:59 PM

what was your goal in creating it?

1:59 PM

when it's so much easier to just link to the stuff DMS posted

You’re page looked like shit.

pull requests welcome

2:00 PM

that's called collaboration

Another line of bullshit.

how so? the repo is open for anyone to submit pull requests

What difference does it make? I have you full credit and wanted to work alone. Working with you invites drama .

if I cared about credit, don't you think I'd be posting livestreams and all kinds of stuff to social media?

If you didn’t care about credit, you would have used an anonymous website.

for someone who claims to run a DevOps focused company, you don't seem to understand how git/github/oss work

2:03 PM

it took more effort to make your clone repo than to just click fork

Yes it did.

clearly credit seems to be a very important thing to you, but to the rest of us, we're just trying to make PPE

2:04 PM

please stop trying to confuse people with your repo

LoL

2:05 PM

Dude, you’re full of shit. It’s obvious this is personal.

it's funny, because I kept telling people to ignore your trolling on this, they kept wanting me to call you out

Nobody is confused but you.

2:08 PM

There’s nothing to call out. If we collaborated on anything, I would have lost support. If you got any PPE at all from my promotion efforts, just be thankful for the support...

2:08 PM

People fucking hate you dude.

wait, so you care more about politics than building PPE?

2:09 PM

I don't care what people think about me, I'm happy with my life, my friends and my family

2:09 PM

hate away

1

No, I cared getting PPE, which wouldn’t have happened if we worked together.

I do the right thing, even when it's hard or when dumb people want to complain about it, if that causes people to hate me, that's on them

@mark.randall what Andrew is describing is literally how git is supposed to work. Your way of doing it is definitely shady

investigating DMS finances and removing people who stole was the right thing to do, regardless of what those people or their friends believe, theft is wrong

More false narratives. This is all petty personal bullshit.

lol ok

Nobody is talking about theft.

2:11 PM

Just you.

Why are we wasting our time arguing with him? He's obviously never done anything wrong and everyone else is mistaken

the only people that hate me are the people who are upset about Kris and Stan, who stole from DMS, why should I care that they hate me?

2:11 PM

I'm waiting for my pizza to finish cooking

2:11 PM

that's why I'm wasting time lol

Indeed, if you judge Andrew by the quality of his enemies then he's a pretty good dude.

Making up petty bullshit narratives is all that’s going on here. We go back a long way Andrew.. and only a couple of years of that was pleasant. I moved on, and so should you.

clearly

As mark himself established higher up the thread all evidence against him is false, even when he provided said evidence as he did when he claimed all that noise about the lawsuit that Haley has shown to be false.

I thought the term was 'wake and bake' not 'wake and bicker'

3

His statement only became made-up petty bullshit when it was shown to be false

Andrew, you’ve been driving a wedge between anyone who doesn’t support your false narratives. You’re not building anything when you do that. You’re not saving the space. You’re tearing it down.

@mark.randall considering your git caused confusion, and now has created a split in the event of updates, you clearly don't care about actually getting PPE versus some petty personal bullshit you have against andrew

2:17 PM

in crisis divergent information is a core blocker to things getting done. There was not reason to not fork it

LoL.. another avalanche of bullshit

and we've provided the evidence it's not false narratives, and so far everyone else involved with those events (including those you claimed would back you) have said otherwise

2:18 PM

that's all I'm gonna say here

2:18 PM

this channel is already enough of a dumpster fire today

pizzas ready, have fun

Evidence coupled with false narratives is not truth. It’s bullshit. There is no honest commitment to reality from you guys... but Andrew has found his crowd, for sure. Good luck. Leave me out of the drama.

3

? From my perspective I asked a clarifying question (thank you Haley), but all I've heard from Mark are more personal threats.

2

3:10 PM

Thanks for calling yourself out, now I know who not to vote for.

(I presume the "bullshit" he's referring to up there were my subsequent years of pushing for a grievance process. Guilty as charged I guess.)

This took an hour to read... @Pearce I almost regret asking this, but can we get a raffi channel and a mark Havens channel? And redirect to those... I fear I'll miss out on the other candidates if I mute this channel

Wasn't this supposed to be the channel for this kind of stuff? I think it got added when Freddy and Draco kept going at it in general

My point is, and I'd assume others feel this way, is that some/many are done with the hashing (no pun) and would like to only continue to read about the others

I think you're asking for a 'post your bickering here' channel, if I'm understanding right?

Indeed

Iirc that was the idea behind this channel

We don't HAVE to, but it would be helpful

I don't remember what we've used this channel for other than bickering tbh

Weve talked about joe and jim, and those ran their course

3:51 PM

I'm afraid raffi mark never will

3:51 PM

And there's several more candidates that don't deserve to be missed

3:51 PM

Due to the monopoly

I guess I just classify that all as bickering lol

Yeah i also thought this channel was opened to move this out of general

4:17 PM

Unless you can convince pearce we need a bickering/timeout channel

Ok, a timeout channel. It's the only channel you can post in, and every post is followed by the bot replying with a random variant of 'can't you give it a rest already'

1

I mean this is sort of the bickering channel by default. Not all the candidates are on discord or If they are they aren't all active. The thread on talk should have the campaign related stuff. This, being an unofficial channel should have the more freeform stuff

Just sounds like more of your false naratives, man.

5:06 PM

(that's what we do here, right?)

1

Technically isn't talk unofficial as well?

Talk is official as it's controlled and moderated by DMS, afaik

5:16 PM

Discord is run by Pearce, who isn't considered DMS because none of us want to be associated with him anyways

5:16 PM

Or something like that

so Talk in unofficial in that it's not an official organizational record (like how committee minutes are often posted to Talk is a courtesy, but they're required to go on the Wiki since that is our official record for said minutes). Additionally the DMS emails are official records for DnO and committee chairs, etc. Things like Talk are DMS sponsored (in this case it's owned by Infrastructure), but things like this Discord were made by members and are not managed by DMS (edited)

The discord and reddit are not moderated by DMS

6:53 PM

This channel is sufficient for this kind of garbage.

7

(that's what we do here, right?)

@Brsims Yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xvx6JwO63to

Ryan Minor

George Carlin on Individuality

Guessing an online meet the candidates, not sure what platform would be best.

2

All the messages from the 16th have gone perfectly with my morning coffee.

5:45 AM

Through the 19th* Not that my two cents matter much to many, but when people running for office/positions of power come on a chat or forum and argue over past mistakes it is a huge red flag for me. Regardless of personal opinion just own up, make a statement, and bounce.

5:51 AM

I think an online Meet would be great. The only difficult part would getting everyone on the same platform. Ya'll would need to schedule it out at least two weeks

I don't think it would be a problem getting everyone on the same platform for a meeting. We have a corporate google meet account and zoom is free. I am sure someone here has a webex account too.

1

Speaking of clowns...

1

Only clown is you

11:29 PM

Yet more whining by you on something that doesn't meet your "standards"

11:29 PM

Sorry @DJ Vance , we don't live in raffiland. I'm sure glad we don't, that place looks rather unstable.

If you make a cogent argument, I'll respond to it.

if you made cogent sense you wouldn't have a problem

11:30 PM

As it stands....

Regarding the drug dealer accusation: I think it's really important to get your facts straight when you throw an accusation like that at someone. Especially someone whom you have a negative history with, who is running for board against you. If you play fast and loose with the facts, like how much the oil might have been worth, it comes off as self-serving. I don't think anyone without a dog in this fight actually thinks that a difference of 10 grand of highly concentrated THC oil vs some Crisco with an ounce of weed in it is splitting hairs. You should try to start with the facts to come up with a reasonable interpretation as opposed to starting with an interpretation, e.g. Mark bad and coming up with evidence to support it, e.g. 10 grand worth of oil. (edited)

11:39 PM

Some reasonable rebuttals to this would be: 1. I didn't play fast and loose and here's why 2. Playing fast and loose is okay and here's why

Are you still on about this?

11:39 PM

You would mistake me actually caring about your opinion.

11:39 PM

At this point, you keep bringing up dead subjects like a paranoid person who just can't let it go

11:40 PM

For you own good, let it go and move on. It sounds like it's eating at you, gotta let that shit go.

@yashsedai if you don't care, then let it go yourself and don't reply.

3

or john, you can mind your own business

11:46 PM

nobody yanked your chain

11:48 PM

don't you have somes masks to put together

11:48 PM

for the potential deathtrap called acme? (edited)

@yashsedai and you want to lead? Lol

2

It's ok john, the ship sailed on your opinion a while back. That whole being drunk 24/7/365 doesn't really work so well.

11:53 PM

Anything else I'm doing not up to your standards?

Now imagine this at a board meeting

Feel free to tell someone who cares

The world doesn't revolve around you, bud

Unlike you, I'm quite well aware of the fact.

11:55 PM

Aww raffi are you trying to injure me?

There are core principles at play here that are bigger than what you personally care about. So what's it going to be? Is playing fast and loose with the evidence okay or is equating some Crisco with an ounce of weed in it and highly concentrated THC oil not playing fast and loose?

See, blah blah, more living in denial

12:00 AM

I'm afraid raffi you are demonstrating just how unqualified of an observer you are with all this.

12:00 AM

As Andrew previously stated, you lack the ability to reason

Do you have any original thoughts on this though? Or should I just go back and read what Andrew said to see what you think?

you couldn't even realize mark's github was fake

12:02 AM

wanna explain for us why that is?

I think that would qualify as changing the topic midstream and I don't want to get silenced on here. Nice attempt though. The question remains.

only in your mind

/me writes reminder to see when orkin is coming out next

I bet there will be more attempts to not have a conversation about the drug dealer accusation.

i bet there will be more attempts to try to defend your lack of logic and beat the pulpy, frothing, dead horse lying in a bloody mess

Sometimes I just wish you'd say something interesting. So far I've pretty much just seen no-content messages on here from you.

lol are you talking about yourself?

12:07 AM

or to yourself

12:07 AM

www.amitalkingtomyself.com? (edited)

So

12:16 AM

The DMS reddit is unmoderated

12:16 AM

And I don't read it

12:16 AM

So maybe go see what they have to think about your email

This mornings catch-up was less interesting with coffee. Why do people continue to feed trolls and thus end up turning into them?

1

ah, Reddit. I read sections occasionally but the whole upvote bandwagon and weird threading has me not registering an account for years now.

7:28 AM

appears to be mostly Dwight on DMS reddit

Eh. It's a public face of the space. It should be somewhat monitored if nothing else

It was created for the same reason I made the discord, to be a place where the board doesn't have control over the content

8:22 AM

It was quite handy when talk suddenly got shut down entirely and posts about mysterious contract signing were disappearing from talk

That why I said monitored and not modded

8:28 AM

I fully support the free speech idea for non-public faces

are we talking dallasmakerspace or DallasMakerSpace?

Hwut

9:02 AM

I don't reddit, but I didn't think caps in urls did anything

‍♂️ me no reddit either, except the occasional trawl

pretty sure caps mean nothing

CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL

1

11:31 AM

@pearce

I declined the offer

11:33 AM

Pay wasn't good enough

lol

Even if quadrupled the pay would still suck

We need a DMS Kik and tiktok ran by disgruntled members

12:18 PM

I'll take over dms tiktok, not a disgruntled member

12:19 PM

Like most tiktok it would be stolen youtube videos formated to pop music and weird video effects

Where would we find disgruntled members though?

ACME

12:25 PM

I need to be younger and more attractive for tiktok, maybe another volunteer

2

This mornings catch-up was less interesting with coffee. Why do people continue to feed trolls and thus end up turning into them?

@NobleGoblin Because his trolling was working. He got an emotional response out of me and I responded by insulting him. It's something I can definitely improve on. It's not easy for me to stay calm in that kind of situation, but I think if I take it as kind of a personal challenge, over time I can get better at it.

1

I've worked on my responses to Freddy ... mainly just ignore now

12:33 PM

I don't let him goat me anymore (edited)

https://vm.tiktok.com/wo7QrU/

12:34 PM

My only dms tiktok video

Video currently unavailable

here I thought tiktok was all about whatever flavor of $AttractiveFemale was popular this week

That too, once the algorithm finds what you like though, im finding a ton of maker DIY videos

I've been listening to the Joe Rogan podcast with Steven Pinker, a cognitive psychologist. He talks about how we evolved to be nice to people because if we do so, we are seen as valuable to have as friends, but that the people who do this in a very calculating way, who do the bare minimum or who expect stuff in return often don't get the benefits because they're seen as selfish, even though they are kind. And this whole system inky works when everyone is able to keep track of who did what. So when you remove that accountability by introducing anonymity, the system kind of breaks down.

Its a huge platform too not just rich entitled teens

because YouTube is too conformist?

To me its Vine 2.0 with better video editing built in

1

12:42 PM

Like its really nice to edit videos in tiktok, compared to the traditional way

12:43 PM

That said there is a lot of youtuber content professionally edited but truncated to 30sec for the ADD audience

the few times I've done video editing it involved breaking out VirtualDub and waiting ... some time ... for the re-encode

12:44 PM

distilled to 30sec ... *all the jump cuts*

Yep some people are really clever though

12:44 PM

Story telling in 30 sec like vine 10sec

not like YouTube isn't immune to the phenomenon - plenty of longer videos that use the style

Didn't tic tok just get busted for directly pushing "ugly, poor, outlier" profiles down in the algorithm?

I heard that

1:41 PM

Or down voting trans or LGBTQ videos, it is a chinese company so I wouldn't doubt it. I see a few non binary people on tiktok, I think the algorithm works off view duration, likes, and comments I think ugly poor outlier is just a human nature thing

if they're like most money-oriented companies they'll chase whatever works with other considerations being secondary

They still have ToS so nudity and illegal stuff gets removed quickly hopefully. Or else it would just be 4chan

I can't imagine a 4chan with audio

Hence Kik

2:05 PM

Give people anonymous chat and let the dark side of human nature take over

Hell, half the times you don't have to be anonymous to get the dark side of people...

4chan does have audio now because of webm

2:11 PM

its not an upgrade

It just means I have to mute the porn

Chrome: mute site

ha. as if to PROVE I don't reddit:

lies

the first, dallasmakerspace is r/dallasmakerspace while the second (with no members) is u/dallasmakerspace which I thought was 2 "accounts" (and I suppose sort of is...one user, one...whatever the heck r stands for)

yeah u/ is for users

1:31 PM

r/ stands for reddit

1

are there other x/entities? or just u/ and r/ ?

not sure

1:37 PM

thats most of my reddit info

1

@aceat64 I wasn't aware that DMS celebrated pride month.....That whole politics and non profit not mixing business.....

Since the dms discord is the official unofficial DMS chat

Yup, discord is unofficial and we wanted to celebrate it

Its not political

we?

6:05 PM

How is it not political?

How is it political?

lol

6:05 PM

nice dodge

Why should what people are attracted to be something anyone should be against?

6:07 PM

How does it hurt our country?

Actually, we should politely request the official dms logo not be modified for branding. But I totally support just using letters with either the original 8 color band, or a reduced color band

the logo has no official colors, as stated on the wiki

2

I don't see how the association helps the org

i dont see how it hurts the org

2

The org should have no association. It should remain neutral

6:15 PM

Logo insinuates support....

God forbid we support people making perfectly acceptable life choices.

4

2

Or, there is just absolutely no place for it within our org....It's got nothing to do with it...

lifestyle agnostic is a much better look for an eclectic organization like ours.

I think lifestyle acceptance might be better look for us.

2

Feel free to do you, but leave the org out of it

@mell I agree, but I don't think we mean the same thing. I haven't seen any ichthys incorporated recently, but I know plenty of our members swing that way, too.

6:26 PM

These types of displays tend to middle finger one faction while being supportive of another.

^^

i wanted an animated one with all the flags, but can only ask for so much when im not doing the work myself

2

You can do a gif channel icon?

yep

6:30 PM

because the server is boosted

As an org that was founded in part by a trans woman, I'd say this is spot on personally.

What does sexual orientation/attraction/etc have to do with DMS? Not a damn thing..... (edited)

Usually we oust the homophobic members or they do it themselves, its happened before.

@themitch22 what does that have to do with this conversation?

Just the memories of certain rants at a member meeting. Reminiscing

Ah, so nothing at all

Since this is unofficial wouldn't it be the mods call?

unofficial or not, its the org's logo....

6:40 PM

doesn't take a lot of brainpower to realize that there is no reason to associate the two

The community is super queer, dude. Get over it.

Again, whats does that have to do with the org?

6:41 PM

The org by definition can't be queer ... its not alive....

You're right. Without the community, DMS wouldn't exist.

You can try to justify it all you want.

6:43 PM

No place for these kinds of politics in business....

6:43 PM

Oh and from a stats perspective, you'd be wrong....

I wasn't aware you were keeping track.

In the channel DMS-politics

It's not hard to gauge

6:44 PM

Spend some time at the space

6:44 PM

you might see for yourself

It is a pity to pit two factions against one another, regardless of the numbers on either side.

That's my whole point

6:51 PM

It's not about whether you believe a certain way or not, just abstain from it there doesn't need to be anyone having an issue...

I love this channel. People keep coming in and making the best cases for electing them.

So now I'm unelectable because I think that you should keep your causes out of business? Tell me how that makes any sense...

7:13 PM

Sounds like you might be intolerant to me.

7:14 PM

Wish that wasn't the case...

My cause is to be accepted and not be treated like less than human when someone learns of my way of life.

7:31 PM

Which they will because I shouldn't have to hide who I spend time with when I'm socializing

Nobody is asking you to hide or saying your cause is wrong.

You're on the wrong side of history dude get over it

Am I?

7:40 PM

Would love to hear how you think that is the case

Well, I don't see a trans burlesque show on the calendar yet ..

... I don't think many would complain about the rainbow logo ...

Here are 30 companies that chose to chase the gay dollar last year. https://www.newsweek.com/these-30-brands-are-celebrating-pride-giving-back-lgbt-community-1441707

50+ brands with Pride collections supporting the LGBT community

Nike, American Eagle and Disney are among the companies celebrating inclusion, equality and love for LGBT Pride month.

Good for them. We are a non profit. Has absolutely nothing to do with us.

Non-profit with paid membership.

And?

And reaching out to the local community encourages membership. The same as businesses using pride merchandise to encourage sales.

So do so without messing with DMS's logo, IDGAF.

8:52 PM

DMS the org has no business doing that.

8:53 PM

DMS the org has no business alienating anyone at this point...

I don't think the logo has actually changed. I believe it's just a image on the Discord.

Hence why we are talking about it here

I small sign of solidarity for the day and for the moment.

what does the flag have to do with the moment?

June is pride month in the US

8:55 PM

Among other several holidays recognized this month.

Why does the DMS logo need to be involved in pride?

8:55 PM

It doesn't represent the org or it's opinion...

8:55 PM

It only serves to divide.

hey everyone this is Michael jumping in

8:56 PM

im really glad you asked the question

8:57 PM

i do think this first comes down to how do you view LGBTQA?

No it doesn't at all

would you care to chat i really would like to hear your openion on the matter

I'm not stating my opinion on the matter. That is just an invitation to make it about me.

DMS the org has no business alienating anyone at this point...

@yashsedai who do you think is being alienated here?

3

I dunno anyone who doesn't believe that way? Anyone that believes that DMS shouldn't have involvement in politics?

well next time the sapce is open id like to talk with you in leagth about this

9:01 PM

we have always had really wonderful talks in the past and id like to hear your point

Always happy to talk

i know its a comnplex topic so i know its hard to convay in chat

9:03 PM

ok doki take care ❤️

you as well

For once I agree with yashsedai. I think we should all be deeply ashamed of our sexuality.

1

hah

Wait is that Alan?

I'm having a hard time comprehending how sexual orientation or identity is "politics." But them I'm old and mostly liberal...

I'm libertarian and I made the server image change

So why do you think it's appropriate to use the DMS logo for this?

Can I suggest that liberalism demands of us that we tolerate, while progressivism requires that we validate.

by that logic you would be tolerant of people who don't share the same opinion (edited)

Definitely

If you decide not to be deeply ashamed, we can still live on the same planet.

'I'm uncomfortable' is a bad reason to avoid a conversation.

this isn't about a conversation

11:40 PM

its about implying that DMS supports one cause or another, has bias one way or another.

Well, as far as discord goes I think that the support is pretty clear.

discord can support all they want, leave dms logo out of it

11:43 PM

in case you haven't noticed, thats my issue

11:44 PM

former board members of DMS know better

11:44 PM

so do current officers

What is your opinion on "Deliberate misgendering. This includes deadnaming or persistently using a pronoun that does not correctly reflect a person's gender identity" ?

No it seems like the logo is just a way to avoid talking about how you aren't comfortable with the support. If the logo goes away this whole conversation does to, and we can all go back to pretending everything is fine. But like I said, that's a bad way to avoid the discussion

Riiiight... so you can make it how I'm intolerant or some ..ism... uhuh

11:49 PM

It didn't need to happen.

11:52 PM

Folks can play dumb about how this isn't a political statement all they want. You wouldn't do it for a religion....

Sure ... we've put up Christmas Trees before

I mean if you had asked me like 4 years ago I probably would've left the server when they made that change. I would've preached for hours that I accepted people and it's all cool, but I know that flag would've made me really uncomfortable. I would've (and I did) made the same argument 'we don't need to be involved' and 'if we just pretend it was never an issue it'll go away'. No one does it for Christianity in the US because, at least here, they haven't had historical struggles. When someone tells you theyre a Christian the default reaction is pretty nuetral. Growing up, if someone introduced themselves as gay, oh man that was not ok at all. I can't speak for the admins, but to me all it's trying to say is that we're past that behavior. And I think that's a perfectly reasonable (and not at all political) statement to make. (edited)

2

I agree with that @michaelb

I'm not following the if we just pretend it was never an issue it will go away...I'm not saying that in the least. I'm still looking for someone to explain to me why the DMS logo and the pride flag need to be combined and displayed as if DMS supports it. That is not what DMS is about, at all. I keep seeing excuses made about why it is ok.

12:08 AM

The claim keeps being made its unofficial, well then don't use the logo if you can't use it as it is.

It's not about whether you believe a certain way or not, just abstain from it there doesn't need to be anyone having an issue...

That's what I'm referring too, maybe I misunderstood what you meant.

oh the irony mitch

The owner of the copyright for the logo approves of this variant

12:47 AM

It's released under CC BY-SA 3.0

Lol you can say my name.

Legally I think I have to

12:53 AM

Logo is by @Toenolla

XD

Didn't expect all this animosity from a logo color change. I don't tend to think of my partner choices as political statements.

Right? Me either.

LOL @aceat64

Honestly it's a silly argument, all things are political in one way or another

Didn't we run a Edward Snowden themed car at LeMons one year?

Toenolla, based on what I've seen you dont do much thinking at all, just reporting everything in the world on the forum (edited)

1:01 AM

It's like everything offends you, oh how rich the irony

There's a fundamental misunderstanding on the limits of 501c3 prohibition on political activity

2

Eh. I'm not the one who's been ranting all day about a palette swap.

Doesnt take a rocket scientist to realize you dont do dumb shit like that.

1:03 AM

Lol I oppose this, you flag everything everyday, yep that compares

Nonprofits are not prohibited from engaging in political activity, they're prohibited in campaigning for a candidate running for office

Would it be more in the spirit of DMS to put it to a vote?

It would be more in the spirit to not do it at all.

As far as I'm aware, pride month does not implicitly or explicitly endorse a candidate

If you notice Andrew, I never suggested it was prohibited, only bad form due to alienating your customer base...

1:06 AM

No reason to show bias either way

DMS has a higher than average LGBT count.

Yes it could be 7 or 8 percent

With plenty of allies

Over the 2.5 percent state average

True, though we don't have to be super queer ourselves to be accepting.

This isnt about acceptance

1:08 AM

You keep trying to make it that

It actually is about acceptance, and arguably it's also good marketing

That's..... Exactly what pride is about. Inclusion.

Except DMS doesnt make those kinds of statements

1:12 AM

It has no reason to be involved

1:12 AM

It's about tools etc

That's not historically true of DMS

I can't wait to hear what Freddy thinks it's about.

LGBT people are a lot less hesitant about something if they know they will be welcome

DMS use to make all kinds of statements that could be considered political in nature

I wasn't there in the early days, but i feel like I remember hearing that out of 100 members only 5 were women, of which none were natural born women

Loads. A lot that I didn't agree with.

Well sorry to say the old guard is gone

1:14 AM

Ain't the current reality

Anyone remember the drones "graffiti"? Designed to evoke discussion about the surveillance state

I ain't seeing the majority agree with you

I dont care about a majority

The first were Alyssa, me, Shona and Nicole iirc.

I wasn't there in the early days, but i feel like I remember hearing that out of 100 members only 5 were women, of which none were natural born women

@ferricyanide That's very incorrect

Ah then i was told incorrectly.

Nicole, my wife, was on the very first board

I'm not saying we had an easy time of it in the early days. There were some board members who were...very...unwelcoming. They didn't last.

Unwelcoming how

don't give him any ideasx

There are views expressed by some that would be today called incel

Lol

DMS was very fringe back then, and not always in a good way lol

It's only been up from there.

So are we changing the logo to red white and blue next month? Red and green in December... or is this a one time thing?

I'll consider Halloween

Do we still have photos of that DMS logo jack-o'-lantern someone made?

I've got an archive somewhere, too tired to look now

I'll say this, when I designed it I was trying to make something that was flexible. I'm really glad to see all the creative takes people have had on the logo over the years.

I think having different colors for each committee was really useful too

1:28 AM

Same logo, but individualized to each group

Fun fact... There's an electric plug in the negative space on the logo, and the border is the core. Originally the idea was to have the cord plug into different tools representative of different areas, but we dropped it due to time constraints.

1:32 AM

The border is the cord. Cord. Dumb autocorrect.

As for holidays... Heck yeah do it up like a Google doodle

Draco the rule enforcer, that shit is rich (edited)

1:46 AM

More like Draco the alt truth master

Is he still here? I've had him blocked for a while now

He is unfortunately

1:48 AM

I havent read his shit here, he was whining on talk saying he didnt ever say stan shouldnt be punished

I'm still waiting to know what the math is for hours volunteered to dollars you're allowed to take (edited)

Haha

1:54 AM

I'm sure in @Draco mind the hour to dollar number is low

1:54 AM

Cause kumbaya

1:54 AM

I bet he figures dms should just pay you to be a member cause reasons

1:59 AM

Maybe Cairenn will give a speech about it

1:59 AM

Even better he can get the bylaws group back together and make it official. Wait wait, that wont ever happen

2:00 AM

Too much fireball

2:03 AM

And mensa

@aceat64 .... Take nothing and feel no pain.

2:38 AM

Stan is banned ... get on with your life .. I have

2:38 AM

I said as much in a PM to Freddy earlier

@aceat64 I'm also waiting for my DMS volunteer hours refund

Or was there special additional rate for hours spent in the common room I missed out on?

4

2

3

Trippy!

Fun with lights

Oh NOW I see the cord. Neat!

I’m behind... My opinion isn’t important, but I like a pride logo for this month... And what’s wrong with Mensa?

I've only ever seen one kind of person brag about being in mensa

1:09 AM

And every time I have doubted their claim lol

It’s not always a brag... just an explanation for our weirdness. This also explains a lot...

1:12 AM

So which makes me stranger?

Caireen makes all sort of claims about being a mensa member...

1:22 AM

Bahhahaha

I haven't renewed my dues in year, but I was in mensa for over a decade and attended the national convention whenit was in houston as a young adult

1

I’ve been in Mensa off and on since 1979. When I moved back to Dallas in 2009, I thought it would help me get over California. It didn’t, but I’ve made some good friends. I’m in FireHouse which is all the black sheep of Mensa.

1:37 AM

National Convention is in Houston again in 2021. I’m hoping to go.

1

Funny quote

The first thing you need to know is that no one has a good reason for joining Mensa. Pretty much anyone who tries to join a high-IQ society does so, ultimately, because he or she is an insufferable jerk.

https://www.washingtonian.com/2013/12/05/talk-nerdy-to-me-my-year-in-mensa/

Sophie Gilbert

Talk Nerdy to Me: My Year in Mensa | Washingtonian (DC)

The first thing you need to know is that no one has a good reason for joining Mensa. Pretty much anyone who tries to join a high-IQ society does so, ultimately, because he or she is an insufferable jerk. Maybe...

I think when things are too negative for too long, it creates a thirst for positivity. I think if someone were to run and completely ignore all the bullshit and just state a positive vision, they would do very well. If they're able to answer the clique's bait and disingenuous criticism with a positive vision, and just kind of rise above it, people would be happy to leave all the bullshit behind.

IQ tests are not something I'd want to judge a person on. I do believe book knowledge and street knowledge have their place, just being able to solve puzzles and have spacial skills just makes you a better engineer or programmer.

@themitch22 or a better gameshow contestant

Yeah I still can't get more than like 10 jeopardy questions

If the message of the logo is to show support of LGBTQ+ sexuality, I think it might be misleading since some people here are not welcoming of them. If I were a Christian who believed that gay sex was immoral, I would not want my views to be misconstrued by such a message because I'm associated with the space. To be clear, I think that hateful, intolerant speech on the basis of sexuality should not be tolerated. I would argue that the logo change while not hateful, expresses intolerance on the basis of religion. It can be reasonably interpreted to mean that "we are a group of people who support LGBTQ+ sexualities" I'm only going to respond to arguments against what I'm saying. Not ad hom attacks, nor ad hom fallacies, nor identity politics, nor arguments against a strawman.

I think making policy on the basis of not offending bigots is a bad look. But that's just me.

9

1

Obviously my main talent is I’m good at bubble tests. Journalists often join Mensa to tear it down. Bitter and cynical crosses all IQs. Many of us enjoy it because in any conversation, we don’t have to prove our intelligence. All of us are “smart.” There are jerks in every group... (I’m looking at you, Talk.)

2

As far as I'm aware, someone else could create another Discord Server and modify the logo with Christmas Trees if they wanted to. The logo is creative commons. It really isn't DMS doing it. The board didn't decide, there was no vote. It is Pearce's server and he can do what he likes but so can you. That is one of the things I love about DMS.

The logo also hasn't been altered

12:14 PM

As there's no official colors

1

That said, I agree it is intolerance of some beliefs. No argument on that point. One of our missions is to "Promote scientific, cultural, and artistic advancement." I think exploring the LGBTQ+ culture in this way, fits within our mission.

I think we can leave religion in the past and be better for it. We saw how it gets used just recently this week

12:25 PM

That's just politics tho. Not DMS politics

I'm not keen on organized religion. People can believe whatever they want, though. It is when they start telling me that I have to follow their beliefs, or else... that we have an issue.

@pearce really?

2:33 PM

I'm guessing you don't know much about the history of that church and US presidents....

2:33 PM

Can't say I'm suprised

2:34 PM

And Draco, it seems your arguement works for lgbt as well, stick it in peoples faces and some have a problem

@yashsedai Why are you so adamant that DMS makes sure not to piss off bigots?

Why are you so adamant that you attempt to piss off people that don't believe in it?

2:39 PM

It's kinda cute that you would label someone a bigot for not agreeing

"believe in" what?

haha nice try

you said it, not me

2:40 PM

did you not understand the words you typed?

I perfectly do, I also understand what you are about.

please enlighten me

Nah

2:40 PM

Not gonna play that game

2:41 PM

Oh the irony...tolerance...

"You have to tolerate my hatred!"

What are you calling hatred?

2:42 PM

A difference of opinon is hatred?

What is it you're saying I believe in? >Why are you so adamant that you attempt to piss off people that don't believe in it? What is "it" that people don't believe in? Are you incapable of typing a noun?

The subject of this continuing discussion?

2:45 PM

you claimed bigotry...

"DMS supports LGBTQ people" is just a fact. We have explicit protections in our code of conduct, and we've had queer people in leadership from day one.

still can't say it?

2:46 PM

I'd think you know what you're talking about, if you're saying people believe in it and that upsets others

2:46 PM

I guess you don't know what you're talking about

@Toenolla so what if there was queer people in leadership

2:47 PM

So what if there are "protections", which any sane individual would see for what they are.

2:47 PM

Doesn't make DMS a supporting org

I realize that might leave some people conflicted, but that seems like an internal struggle. We have a lot to offer as a community, and I think most people see that.

I love the attempt at painting disagreement as bigotry or "internal struggle"

2:49 PM

lgbt has shit to do with dms

2:49 PM

thats like saying dms is pro black because we have black members...

2:49 PM

its disingenious

Which parts of the anti-harassment policy do you feel should be revoked?

Which parts do you feel should be removed?

I asked you first

Any part that forces someone to cow to the concept of some made up fantasy (edited)

Pretty vague.

not really

I'll retreat to my previous position - you don't know what you're talking about.

feel free to say that

2:51 PM

doesn't make it truthful or relevant

"Pro-black" what the hell? What else is there?

are you serious?

You're the one unable to articulate your position with specificity, so it's obvious you either don't know what you're talking about, or you don't know how to say it?

i can articulate my position fine

2:53 PM

Keep your rainbow flag religion to yourself

2:53 PM

i'll keep my beliefs to me

So far we have DMS shouldn't let folks know they won't be hassled about their gender/sex/gender identity/sexuality and now we have DMS shouldn't be pro-black

2:53 PM

what else do you believe

right, you seem to fail at understanding false equivalency

2:54 PM

dms has no business in the latest fashion of the day, we aren't a clubhouse anymore...

2:55 PM

nor should we pander to ever special interest group out there, the most specific of which is a single individual

2:55 PM

you act as if not stating opinion make someone anti

2:55 PM

thats just not how logic works

2:55 PM

thats how social justice pressure works

2:55 PM

and someone obviously in the past caved to that ridiculousness

Here's the anti-harassment policy. You can tell us specifically which parts are wrong, just type the number(s) you don't like

2:55 PM

Harassment is prohibited and will not be tolerated. Any person who feels they have been the victim of harassment should ask the harasser to cease the behavior, if they feel safe doing so. Members or guests asked to stop any harassing behavior are expected to comply immediately. Harassment includes the following, without limitation: 1 Offensive comments related to race, religion, gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, or physical appearance 2 Gratuitous sexual or obscene images or behavior in spaces where not appropriate 3 Unwelcome physical contact or sexual attention without consent or after a request to stop 4 Threats or incitement of violence towards any individual, including encouraging a person to engage in self-harm 5 Deliberate intimidation by words, gestures, body language, or menacing behavior 6 Stalking 7 Harassing photography or recording, including logging online activity for harassment purposes 8 Continued one-on-one contact or communication after requests to cease 9 Deliberate "outing" of a sensitive aspect of a person’s identity without their consent 10 Deliberate misgendering. This includes deadnaming or persistently using a pronoun that does not correctly reflect a person's gender identity

2:56 PM

I guess if you don't like number 1 you'll need to be specific about whether you want to be a racist, or whatnot

see there you go again

2:56 PM

trying to claim that disagreeing = racism

that's the policy. Tell us where it's wrong.

There doesn't need to be a list...

ok which ones would you take off the list

lol

2:57 PM

you daft?

2:57 PM

i just said there doesn't need to be a list

2:58 PM

Offensive comments works...

2:58 PM

2 seems reasonable

2:58 PM

so does 3

2:59 PM

4 is unenforcable

2:59 PM

5 is unenforcable

dms has no business in the latest fashion of the day, we aren't a clubhouse anymore...

Like someone pointed out above, plenty of 'not a clubhouse' businesses have decided to do exactly what we did here.

I'd imagine there wasn't always such an extensive list but "don't make us make a rule" prevailed "it's just a joke bro" was probably said how about number 1, you skipped that

6 is a legal definition

2:59 PM

7 is vague and unenforcable

3:00 PM

8 seems reasonable

3:00 PM

albeit not the orgs business

@jswilson64 this took years, and tons of offenses.

3:00 PM

you're on the money

no comment on the first item on the list,

Ayyy it's a gif!

says volumes

9 and 10 have no basis in reality

3:01 PM

does it now?

I like how you're ok with "No offensive comments" being a rule but then you don't think deliberate misgendering is real and offensive

3:06 PM

Maybe you'd feel safer at DMS if we added "we won't hassle if you if you're an admitted bigot" to the list

Seems somoene might have missed that kindergarten lesson on sticks and stones.

3:06 PM

I'm a bigot for having a differing opinion that you don't know or understand?

I didn't say that. I said maybe DMS should clarify that it won't allow harassment of bigots.

lol

@pearce I like that better, the top and bottom stripes kinda got lost in the other one.

Calling someone a name they don't want to be called is the victim's problem because "sticks and stones" - is that really where you want to stand?

discord does weird cropping

yeh

Yeah that logo is better. More purply.

@jswilson64 you act as if a rule is going to change that

You dodged that pretty deftly.

lemme guess, you need a safe space

Why all the evasiveness?

3:10 PM

Safe space? I'm not the one triggered by a rainbow.

Ooo, fancy!

boosting the server does cool stuff, its an emoji too dmspride

1

nice!

I'm triggered because I asked for it to be neutral rather than bias?

I had no idea it animated! It only does it when you mouse over so thanks for posting the emoji

Yes, you're triggered

3:15 PM

:dmspride:

lol

I don't recognize the pink-yellow-blue one

TIL: https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/loftlgbtcenter/pages/6555/attachments/original/1510264919/Pride_Flags_For_Sale.png?1510264919

oh!

coolio!

I had no idea there were so many

Of course I'm familiar with the trans one. I've become a pretty active trans ally koff because of DMS koff

Does DMS have a flagpole?

I don't think so. We'd have to ask the landlord to put one in.

Seeing some bigger lists now with more Googling etc. I still remember Googling "blue sticker with yellow equals sign" when I first started seeing those stickers. Was a hard thing to Google, but always saw a lot of them driving around on moving vehicles without a chance to ask about it.

yeah. whenever you see a symbol like that, it's good to look it up. no telling what you'll learn!

3:26 PM

(sometimes bad stuff, mostly good stuff)

the red background one seems to have become the new standard

I see that one on their page etc., but I don't know if I've seen one yet.

@yashsedai .. Do you think transgenders are really the gender they claim to be?

theres no way the landlord is putting anything out front

Didn't think so...heh

3:31 PM

@Draco he doesn't. He already said as much.

also like 90% of the non parking space out front has those dastardly power lines really low on it

1

we'd be coughing up for it

I would say the pole might go on the end of the building

probably bigger priorities for us than a flagpole (that we'd barely maintain)

low enough I can hold up a flourescent and get light, and I'm a short

oh and btw draco, you are not a dragon either....sorry bud

inb4 attack helicopter

Well, you're not an anime character ... and?

hey @pearce I know you've done a lot of work already, but any chance we could get still versions of the flag emoji? Discord wants me to pay for the privilege of posting the animated one.

5

1

lol draco i've never claimed to be

3:36 PM

you have claimed in person to be a dragon

Ohhhhhhhh yes .. I remember .. Kris was making me a mask

3:38 PM

cosplay dude

Brilliant thank you!

uhuh

3:39 PM

riiight

If I was a dragon.. how the hell would I fit into DMS?

You could be one of those cute baby dragons

Being true to my 6-year-old self, I am actually Batman

prediction: people will alter their fundamental form at an increasing rate in the future as we live lives bombarded with ever more idealized imagery and have the technology to do so (relatively) cheaply and effectively

cyberpunk is going to be awesome

On a semi-serious note, I don't identify as any gender so I expect to fade from existence any minute now.

more or less everything that sci-fi, comics, anime, etc have envisioned has the potential to come to pass

Human rights really seems to inconvenience a lot of people at the DMS. I'm glad the allies are loud though

1

2

I've been waiting for my flying car since about 1970

"wheres my jetpack"

where IS my jetpack? I coulda sworn I left on the counter....

to the extent that there are going to be flying cars, they're probably going to be autonomous. and not very car-like.

im totally down for that

3:50 PM

or like minority report style highways full of pod cars

because barring some wild advancements in propulsion technology, it's difficult to make something heavy-duty enough for the road that also has the power to fly

that whole take off thing is a bitch

along with that whole "not falling out of the sky" thing

3:52 PM

the FAA is mighty keen on that point

I should show up sometime with a dragon mask and suit of armor ... gotta figure out the tail though

3:53 PM

I'm sure someone has plans

I could make you a moving one. Been working on my animatronics chops.

oooo that sounds cool

Ehh mass transport seems more practical than flying cars. High speed rail or hyperloop

Either would be grand

I wish I could take a train to Dallas...even crappy train travel is nicer than a plane.

Did they ever do that train to Austin/Houston?

3:55 PM

I know they were going to put in one

dallas houston is supposed to happen but is under a bunch of red tape

3:55 PM

90min trip

ahh figures

3:56 PM

yeah that got me excited .. do you know if it stops in Austin?

It won't go near Austin

straight shot as far as i know

yeah that's kinda out of the way

ok

Stop planned for near College Station I belive

Yeah we were told college station would be a stop on that like years ago.

Still, it would be cool to get down there and see some people

Which, I'm down for anything to lessen the game day traffic in college station. God that was painful. (edited)

I can imagine ...

3:58 PM

There are some cool pine woods around there

3:58 PM

I love visiting nature

3:59 PM

Do you know what makerspaces are down there? Any good ones?

Not after binary tree shut down in Bryan. The university has spaces for architecture and engineering students.

txrx is a thing in houston

@Toenolla Amtrak has a route to Dallas. But it would cost more than a flight

I toured once, it looked pretty cool. They had a kitchen and a group cooking dinner that night. Plus there was some guy from cosine additive working on a clay extruder so that was fun to watch

Once the train opens up .. gotta have to visit

@themitch22 no shit! Yeah I'm gonna get on that when the quarantine lifts...whenever that is

1 should be changed because anyone can be offended by anything.

I'm just excited to get in there ... I hope we can get people back quickly

4:07 PM

I want to make this ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GAFdal_eDg

Prince Armory

️ FANTASY LEATHER HELMET - FULL TUTORIAL

️ How To Craft Leather A...

1

10 should be changed. If you don’t like how someone speaks to you, ask them not to speak to you that way. If they continue to speak to you that way, that should fall under harassment and be against the rules. But when speaking about you to other people, it should not be against the rules to deadname you or refer to you using a pronoun with which you don’t identify. If someone believes that you are male if and only if you have at least one Y chromosome, and female otherwise, as I do, they should be able to express that view with anyone who has not asked them to stop talking to them.

Raffi, are you confusing sex with gender?

4:13 PM

Many people understand them to be different. One being biological and the other mental.

4:13 PM

or an identity

>1 should be changed because anyone can be offended by anything. @DJ Vance what should be changed about it?

4:19 PM

Here's the first item in the harassment policy again to save scrolling: 1 Offensive comments related to race, religion, gender, gender identity and expression, sexual orientation, disability, or physical appearance

But I am all for simplifying the rules if we can ... 25 thousand words is a bit much for anyone to read and understand and that is non-committee rules/policies (edited)

On the jet pack thing, drivers have enough problems with left, right, forward and back. I don't want to add up, down, pitch and yaw. Jet packs are a bad idea

1

That's why I'm good with fully autonomous

4:25 PM

Honestly I don't even want to own the vehicle

1

Is everything political now? Even Jet packs?

I've got my doubts that the first generations of autonomous automobiles will be private cars for most

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/driverless-trucks-being-tested-on-public-roads-60-minutes-2020-03-13/

@Deleted User Some humans actually have a natural insensitivity to testosterone, and will always be born physically female even if they have a Y chromosome. Are they men?

4:56 PM

(Sorry, I know I shouldn't feed the trolls, but this is one of my favorite biology facts.)

4:57 PM

(Along with the fact that you can make lobsters think up is down by feeding them iron filings and exposing them to a magnetic field.)

goes to buy a lobster

1

it also works with crayfish, if you don't have a big tank

Did you mean crawfish?

that would make them mutants....

it turns out lobster really does stick to magnet https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hzBh0J1YFU

Noah Ross

Lobster Magnet

5:02 PM

ah, but mutant men or mutant women?

mutant men....

would you call them "sir"?

5:04 PM

or "he" or whatever?

Depends

@michaelb I can see a duel is in order lol

If I was unsure I'd likely go with whatever made the most sense

and you'd figure out what makes the most sense by....

context clues?

5:07 PM

it's not lost on me what you are saying, i have no reason to be anything but courteous to most people

right. so you'd look at her name, her body, the way she dresses, how other people address her etc.

Usually yep

Exactly. That's all anybody wants.

ok?

5:11 PM

I'm not following the issue?

5:11 PM

just because I don't support a movement doesn't mean i oppose it

5:12 PM

Thats the issue here

5:12 PM

nobody can seem to put their head around

Well, I was originally talking to Raffi

he's not wrong though

5:12 PM

she's still a dude

5:12 PM

but nobody is making an issue of it

5:13 PM

if they do, it's on them

5:13 PM

thats my issue, the movement seeks to make it everyone's problem

5:13 PM

it's not

Sorry, I thought we were talking about the code of conduct.

Human rights is everyone's problem. Everyone has to right to be treated humanely. Being supportive of that should be innate. Being proud of our differences should be celebrated and not shoved to the side or under a rug to make white or cis or heterosexuals feel comfortable.

2

5:17 PM

They don't have a reason to feel uncomfortable by homosexuality or transgender but they do and then oppress those people for making them feel the jibblies. That's what we're fighting against

Sorry, you don't get to tell people that they have to believe that someone is xyz now because thats how they feel

5:18 PM

Its a feeling

5:18 PM

It doesn't make it reality

Personally, I don't see the difference, socially, between someone who was born an XY female, assigned female at birth through surgery, or who decided to transition later in life. What matters is who they are now.

You don't have to believe anything, but you should want to accept someone for who they are regardless of your beliefs if it doesn't harm you

Again, no you don't have to accept anything. Thats whats at hand here. If you don't do x then you are blah blah blah

5:20 PM

fuck that noise

5:20 PM

You wanna delude yourself great, don't expect the rest of us to have to uphold the delusion if we so choose not to

5:21 PM

You can't be what you aren't. Same way I can't identify as a 50yr old.

Freddy .. you can call me a human if you want

I think gender and sex are the same. I understand that some people disagree. I think there are three things: gender, physical attributes associated with gender, and gender roles. I’ve given my definition of gender. Physical attributes typically associated with gender, like height, pitch of voice, presence of different sex organs, are not gender, but there is a relationship in that gender usually has a predictable effect on those because of the different hormones that fetuses are exposed to. Gender roles in a group are the expected attributes and behaviors for different genders. Those are the definitions I’m working with. @jswilson64#4805 it should be changed to limit the kinds of comments that fall under harassment so that not all comments that offend someone that are related to those topics are against the policy.

Draco I'll just call you a pedant

You don't have to do anything, I'm saying as a good human being you should want to support other humans. You saying that you don't let's everyone know you are an unempathetic, unsympathetic person. If you want to be known as that that's fine but you will not stomp out other people's willingness and drive to support humans.

Did I win Raffi's award back then?

Regardless, while you're at DMS you have to follow the code of conduct.

@Tinkerpunk/Lola wrong, you don't get to set the bar about how people should behave or think. Thats what the issue is here. Either think your way or you are bad.

5:24 PM

Where is the tolerance there....

@Toenolla I’ve already answered your question

Why don't you want everyone to have what you have? The bar is that you don't want other people to have the freedoms and comfort you do which is selfish and unsympathetic

HAHA, I can't control what people feel. That's where you are stumbling. You think that by my affirmation its going to make it all better. The problem is inside.

Relevant biology fact: regardless of what genitalia you have, you don’t have a penis and vagina both capable of reproducing.

I can control what people feel ... I'm a Dragon!

I'm not obligated to do shit, nor is anyone else. The concept that you are going to guilt them socially into it is bs.

@Deleted User I'm just checking. I was hoping maybe we could have a discussion about it.

5:28 PM

Do you have to be fertile? Do women stop being women after menopause, for instance?

5:29 PM

Also I'm not sure that's entirely true but it's been a while since I took biology.

Chromosomes.....

@Toenolla No

So someone born intersex can be both.

5:32 PM

@yashsedai when did you last look at your chromosomes?

hrm, i look every day you didnt know?

5:33 PM

i have to check

You have a gene mapping setup at home?

make sure they didnt change

No, you haven't. What you've seen is your body. Your body is not your chromosomes.

lol

5:34 PM

whats your point?

5:34 PM

im not following?

Well, how could you know anyone else's?

I never claimed to?

5:35 PM

But see here is where the problem begins

Then why did you say "chromosomes" up there?

biology.....

5:36 PM

this isn't hard

5:36 PM

You literally can't change your gender

@Toenolla intersex can have both, but cannot have both that are capable of reproducing.

@Deleted User so is an intersex person a man, or a woman?

whats a man and a woman

They are male if and only if they have at least one Y chromosome, otherwise they are female.

Exactly!

5:38 PM

er, @yashsedai exactly

5:38 PM

intersex people have Y chromosomes

with the statistical insignificance of intersex humans that is really not what is up for debate

5:38 PM

its about social constructs

However, many are castrated at birth and grow up female. And a lot of them are pretty ticked off about that.

5:40 PM

@yashsedai but you just said it was about biology.

i referred to raffi's message yes

5:40 PM

what does castration at birth have to do with biology?

5:40 PM

at that point parents made a choice

Oh, do you have raffi blocked? I think you're missing some bits.

5:41 PM

He said that a Y chromosome is what makes you male.

I think it’s great when people who don’t fit into either gender role refuse to conform. I think it’s courageous. It’s a difficult road to go down. I love it when individuals express their identity and flourish, when they are comfortable with who they are. (edited)

1

@yashsedai sorry, I misread

Perhaps I really should identify as a Dragon then .... hmmm ... fun to play with that notion though

You do you, my man. It's a lot easier for someone to identify as a gender though, seeing as generally we agree that men and women exist.

I think it’s a very sad thing when poeple deny who they are, with their appearance, with their speech, or any expression or decision. Often this happens because of pressures to give up the beauty of the individual in favor of the safety of the group. Some LGBTQ+ people know this. So do some Christians.

Do you think trans people deny who they are?

I think alot of trans people are in the closet so to speak

5:45 PM

because of social presures

5:45 PM

sad to be stuck like that

I think some do, e.g. if they live in a town of intolerant Christians.

lol

I know some who go incognito at the space or at work, which is sad.

Like I said, I think that’s sad

Let's blame the Christians now. Its obviously their fault

Hey Muslims aren't fans either

5:46 PM

not all

5:46 PM

but some

@Deleted User yeah, I think we all know someone like that and how much it blows to experience it.

It was an example, hypothetical, not a generalization. (edited)

I think the keyword is intolerant

Correct

1

We have had trans people feel rejected at DMS ... I know of one that will not come back because of it

let me stop you right there

That's really sad Draco. I didn't know.

If a trans person believes they are male, they should be able to express that in their appearance, speech, and other expressions. Same goes for Christians. (edited)

uncomfortable people will be uncomfortable

5:49 PM

especially as long as they look to the external for approval

5:50 PM

this whole thing isn't new

Yeah, of course. They just have to do it together. At least when they're at DMS.

Not at all

5:50 PM

It's called overcoming your fears

@yashsedai now you've lost me

maybe i've misunderstood

5:51 PM

explain your statement of "they have to do it together"

exist together. share the space. be kind.

is that not the default of everyone?

5:52 PM

its a shared space

5:52 PM

thats a given

5:52 PM

being kind is up for interpretation

5:52 PM

what do you mean be kind?

So, Freddy, do you think people should try to not purposefully offend people at DMS spaces?

depends on the case draco

5:53 PM

for you, all bets are off

well that's a broad question. But specifically for trans people that means not intentionally misgendering them

ya but thats the thing

5:53 PM

most people wouldn't

5:53 PM

and yet....

5:54 PM

barking at someone who misgendered another unintentionally...

5:54 PM

at some point you have to take responsibility

that's not what we're talking about at all

but thats the reality

I've misgendered people unintentionally at the space. It happens.

in our quest to make people feel "comfortable" we've developed this overreaction

5:55 PM

maybe overreach is better

5:55 PM

if someone develops a problem with you, thats going to be an issue whatever you are

I know you think that, but that's not what the rules say.

If I wear a shirt that states my definition of gender because I want to express my belief and I think it’s important that people feel empowered to talk about the topic, surely that will offend people. The purpose is not to offend, it’s to empower, so I’m not sure if that falls under what you’re saying, Draco. But I would be supportive of that action.

do you know what empower means?

5:56 PM

to say empower insinuates they lack it

5:56 PM

that is not the case

5:57 PM

back to that whole if you don't agree you are against me

Well, according to the rules, I think there's a strong argument that you would be intentionally misgendering our trans members by wearing that shirt.

To make them feel empowered

lol wearing a shirt = misgendering people?

That’s not misgendering. Misgendering is when you refer to someone with pronouns of a gender with which they don’t identify.

are you serious?

Yes. Because you're saying, ahead of time, that you don't believe they are who they say they are.

It’s not even intent to misgender.

no

5:58 PM

thats bs

5:59 PM

having a different opinion doesn't equal action

Like if I put up a sign saying "women are actually bats" or something. It doesn't matter that it isn't directed to one person.

Personally, I don’t intend to misgender people. I don’t think it’s really useful to anyone. But I might wear a shirt like that.

Doesn't equal a rule violation

I think it would be since it’s an offensive comment

lol you offend me raffi

6:01 PM

is that a rule violation?

Raffi, I assure you that if you do, you will be making trans people feel unwelcome. With that knowledge, you should be able to understand that it's not appropriate.

subjective rules are never gonna work like that

6:01 PM

there you go telling people how they should feel

6:01 PM

sorry but thats the core here

Do you think it wouldn't?

depends on how mentally fragile they are

6:02 PM

even then, that isn't on raffi

6:02 PM

its on them

6:02 PM

he didn't make them that way

6:02 PM

they chose to interpret external stimuli and let it affect them a certain way

it seems like you don't believe we should have rules, then

no

6:03 PM

i think we should have rules that make sense

and you know, that's fine, but we do.

and are enforcable (edited)

6:03 PM

i'm not arguing that we don't?

6:03 PM

and it doesn't make your argument any more valid saying that either

What if trans people actually don’t want to force people to use their pronouns and would rather be respected than condescended to? I think it’s condescending when people who agree with my definition refer to trans people using their preferred pronouns. Only reason I would do it is because the conflict outweighs the condescension.

Did you ask any trans people?

It’s basically saying “I disagree, but I’m going to lie to you to protect your feelings”

how about this, what if i find forced speech offensive? thats pretty much what you are saying here, i have to do x or else.

Nope. You don't have to refer to anyone by any pronouns if you don't want to.

6:06 PM

Just use their name. I was having trouble getting my friend Dee's pronouns right so I just used their name for a while.

We need to have a town hall meeting and discuss what this rule means "Don't merely respect each other; be excellent to each other." (edited)

no we don't

In a sense, you’re right, because people who agree with my definition could just avoid referring to trans people at all. I’d argue that’s not really a viable option so it really is a use of force.

And have it often as new people come in

6:07 PM

and come to some understanding

you need to ride back off into the sunset and take your crap with you

6:07 PM

that rule is a damn joke

It is a viable option. Like, I know because I did it for a while. And I'm pretty sure y'all are as smart as me.

lol not generally a problem for me

6:08 PM

i hate you all equally

6:08 PM

therefore keep to myself

It’s still forced speech. You’re given a few options, and you’re forced to choose from those options. (edited)

no

Freddy, you are on Talk and Discord more than me ... you know you don't keep to yourself

6:10 PM

Why are you involved with a group of people you despise?

I don't despise DMS

6:11 PM

just your bs (edited)

You said you hate people equally ... are you saying that you just like the tools then?

it's a joke...

6:12 PM

the tools are usually fine

6:12 PM

they don't talk back much

Raffi voted. And it was not a proxy. He himself expressed approval of the candidate. Raffi voted. And it was not a proxy. Raffi Raffi’s self expressed approval of the candidate. Raffi voted. And it was not a proxy. They themself expressed approval of the candidate. Raffi voted. And it was not a proxy. They themselves expressed approval of the candidate.

Like, Raffi, you can have a problem with it, but the code of conduct doesn't care what your principles are.

6:14 PM

Themself is singular.

I don’t think themself is a word, let me check

It is in the south!

6:15 PM

lol

It doesn’t really matter, I think my point is clear.

You voted once?

Raffi isn't creative with their use of language.

6:17 PM

(You can use "they" for people whose genders you don't know too, it's very useful.)

6:18 PM

(Or as just...a neutral.)

6:20 PM

Raffi I notice you didn't use "she" in your examples.

if you think I’m not creative with my use of language, you don’t know me.

I'm against the icon changing cause the flashing of colors effects my vision.... but thats all

Maybe Pearce can set it back to the still rainbow

6:30 PM

Whoops @pearce

it's only animated on hover

Actually on mobile it is animated all the time when choosing a server

6:47 PM

or channel

I bet if the animation slowed down it would work too

Actually on mobile its animated all the time.....

well just don't use mobile

6:53 PM

could probably make it not loop

6:54 PM

so it just rotates through once

SOME of us don't have that option while not at computer

I think he's joking

I am joking

1

Hard to tell

On Android tablet it cycles through all pride variations.

As does Android phone

itll animate when you are in the server or hover over it

9:25 PM

in the server* on phone

!members

There are currently 1379 members.

1

Well, that took quite some time to read. Now that the iconography is a solid color, branding guidelines that we frankly don't explicitly have but have inheritantly applied would match. I appreciate the efforts made by those who worked on the image. I'd also like everyone to understand my comments were following what corporations do with their logos. I work for a company that has a 100% score from the HRC. I look forward to seeing future months have updated iconography for this server.

Well, just to mess with the color debate, at one of the PR meetings from hell last summer, kevin wanted to make “glitter” an official DMS color.

well, considering its kevin...that isn't surprising.

11:28 AM

he isn't exactly known for the most feasible of ideas

I find it best not to comment on logos, here is the result of the last time I made that mistake

1

Not to throw stones but I wanted to change 3d fab to gold....i didn't but wanted to

I wanted ponies and unicorns but none arrived.

Ponies are assholes.... You don't want a pony

1:01 PM

lol

soooo true. My dad had horses and they were assholes, our neighbor had ponies and they were assholes X 4.

My neighbor/landlord had horses and I went to feed them with him one time. He had a "whoop ass" stick he had to take to fend off the cranky old male who liked to try to knock him down. Or as he put it, "whack that ol' sumbitch upside the head." Horses can be jerks.

I don't think I'd own a horse I'd need a whoop ass stick for. My filly is a doll, so sweet. My gelding is a jerk, but he's getting better. His previous owner was a bit unconfident and timid and i think he used that to be a spoiled brat. That just got doted on and not have to do anything. Instead of running from me every day its like once every two weeks now. The filly will follow me around and watch what in doing and get scritches. Sometimes chews on the wheelbarrow. Ive had them about 2 months.

Sometimes chews on the wheelbarrow

Yum, fresh wheelbarrow.

Giant grass eating puppy thats scared of its own shadow basically

There used to be 4 donkeys at my work. They would chew on my car

Yeah i wouldn't leave a car i cared about with horses

3:59 PM

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/ponies-in-dartmoor-lick-car-cause-1200-damage-513112

Rachael Turner

Wild ponies cause £1,200 worth of damage by licking car - Horse & H...

The unsuspecting driver parked his car in Dartmoor National Park to embark on a hike around the moors

4:03 PM

Do we have a new election date set yet?

Not sure, but we're closer to the election than we've ever been!

1

Omg

when we have an opening date we'll have a new election timeline

Re: car-licking pony link: sounds like Sega Insurance is the British equivalent to Farmers Insurance with the “stranger than fiction” claims they’ve paid.

@AGr From a graphic design perspective I really loved that logo.

11:59 AM

@judy Kriehn I believe that was the same meeting that introduced the “new design” for business cards that no one had approved. FYI, I did see a glitter logo. It was routed out and back filled with resin and multicolored glitter.

You guys say “glitter” like it’s a bad thing.

herpes of the craft world, right?

Glitter is only acceptable encased in resin

1

Glitter, not my cup of tea, but it has its uses. As a logo.... only a few use cases come to mind.

12:19 PM

It’s also good in birthday cards.

Glitter tea? Not mine either .. I do like shiny though ... but camo is my fav color

I have put it in gifts with little Mylar shapes for neat freaks. When they finally moved years later, they were still finding it.

I may or may not have loaded car vents with it at weddings....

1

Oh that’s a brilliant idea! Of course I’m happiest when things light up. Hence I have my own lighting guy.

We use to use tinsel on the x-mas tree ... about as bad ... tinsel and pets = everywhere

Ah yes. Tinsel in the litter box

lol yup

That’s crappy

Fabulously crappy

Does it shine up the turds?

No not really lol

12:25 PM

They do make a pill though that reportedly does

12:25 PM

but mainly it got into the couch and under it ..

12:26 PM

and into packing boxes

Regarding the damage horses did to the car reminds me of: https://youtu.be/_CQz0lL9kHw

lugh23

Dogs tear cop car to shreds to Benny Hill music

LOL ... my bumper!

12:27 PM

Come home to a bunch of strange bumpers all buried half way in the yard ...

Come home or Came home. Somehow I can envision that being your yard Draco

LOL

12:45 PM

yeah .. I blame the dog

I liked the "fox" logo, just did not approve of the way it was brute forced. If it had been up for a vote for approval from various choices, or even just to change to it from the original logo, I would have voted for it.

I was OK with the wrench and fox logo, but that window has long closed

I liked the design myself, but yeah we should have voted on it.

I thought it was https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Regular_Member_Meeting_20160114#Minutes

Regular Member Meeting 20160114

6:27 PM

I guess it didn't get tabled but didn't get voted on either

that was a vote to vote on it at the member meeting

Sorta like a Regular member meeting member meeting?

9:24 PM

@Draco it's a long story I can explain over dm if you want

In the current official logo, it's supposed to be a cable that plugs into a wall, right? If so, I'd like it to have two prongs sticking out of it. I really like the logo though. It reminds me of a fist bump

in this image, I've overlayed another pic of a plug in roughly the same orientation. Does this help visualize the prongs? They're facing straight up (Z Axis)...

1

They go sideways

1

@pearce stop trying to make his head explode

I always saw it as a grounded plug

I thought the M was the outlet and the cable wrapped around.

But type M plugs don't look anything like that? I'm confused

I thought it was one of these https://www.illusionsindex.org/images/illusions/impossible-trident/Impossible-Trident.jpg

3

1

Canonical.

If you turn it upside down it becomes the Wokerspace

And for some reason i can actually see the plug better now

true

The Makerspace Trident

I see the Makerspace Illuminati

I still say that the old expansion team was part of that

2:39 PM

not THE Illuminati .. but the makerspace secret society

The Eventuallyopenspace

2:43 PM

3 is going to be tough

300MembersMakerspace

1

damn savage

2:48 PM

The 3rd Reich Space

2:48 PM

Literally the same colors too

12:01 AM

The original colors were Purple for the M

Yeah for TEDxSMU

12:29 AM

White and purple on black

Dear @Draco could you just not meddle in shit for once?

Got the tshirt

9

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-county-holding-emergency-meeting-over-face-mask-requirement/2391778/

Brian Roth

Face Masks Now Required in Dallas County Businesses, Commissioners ...

The Dallas County Commissioners Court on Friday voted to approve requiring businesses to tell customers to wear a face mask or face a fine of up to $500.

10:20 AM

now if anyone complains about the masks, tell them to take it up with the county lol

https://youtu.be/iCvmsMzlF7o

TED

The power of vulnerability | Brené Brown

ugh. I had my fill of Brene Brown on my first foray. then she became assigned reading. Seriously struggling to make it through, and hoping it gets better after chapter 2...

Sorry to hear that. I've always disliked assigned reading. For me, it takes the fun out of it.

I like reading/watching stuff that is well-organized and uses examples to make the argument for a high-level message. I think other people have less of a preference for it to be highly organized, and maybe want to focus more on concrete examples that support a lower-level message.

Brene Brown doesn't have anything to say worth hearing....Just yak yak yak generalization, yak, bullshit, yak

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/so-now-that-we-are-open-when-is-the-election/71983/3 ~~Like~~ Comment ~~Subscribe~~

Personally the science of happiness is one of my favorite topics that can be backed up with empirical data. Freddy, I think you could honestly benefit from looking into it. And I don't mean that as an insult or in a negative way.

Except what she is touting isn't science, its some word soup she strung together and supported it with her "im a social worker, etc"

12:49 PM

I've read what she had to say on the subject, she literally has nothing new to say on it.

Did I specify her?

12:55 PM

I'm pretty sure I didn't. She's not the only happiness researcher. There are plenty of others who are more based in science.

Are you assuming I'm unhappy?

1:02 PM

An alternative to you what you are thinking might be that I don't suffer fools well. As has been demostrated abundantly.

People you perceive to be fools... whether they are or not i suppose is a matter of opinion

yep, it's an opinion... (edited)

Exactly why be rude to "fools?" What does it accomplish? I doubt it suddenly makes someone no longer a fool. So what is the motivation?

I'm generally not rude to anyone without having suffered plenty of foolish behavior from them. Just because I may believe them to be a fool doesn't mean I treat them poorly. That generally comes with exhibited behavior on a case by case basis. I do make some exceptions

2:11 PM

see draco and raffi sometimes

For instance, I'm clearly ignorant of networking stuff and make foolish assumptions about it. Freddy gives me shit for it but I don't assume my assumptions are flawless

Difference being my giving you shit is just friendly comradery.

I think a lot of it boils down to everyone trying to use strict definitions to "gatcha" people

2:35 PM

Like trying to define "fool"

I used fool becuase of its use in the phrase "not suffer fools"

2:37 PM

It could be interchanged with pedants who have been pedantic too long, intentionally annoying individuals, people like draco who have crossed the boundary of social good into "i'm gonna do it because I think i know better than all you people"

2:39 PM

lol as illustrated not simple to define, subjective, etc

Better? ... That is a new one. No I just think the board is not above the law

2:46 PM

The whole legal system is full of pedants

But you discredit yourself everytime you try to rules lawyer something insignificant

2:50 PM

Like saying everyone needs a voice in the meet the candidates

2:50 PM

We didn't even have that last year. People got to submit questions and @doug.emes asked them

to be fair, he's walked that back

I was responding to Freddy s original comment "We can have any meeting any way the board wants. Go away concern troll. You have zero impact on anything."

It's a truthful statement

2:52 PM

Draco has ZERO impact over anything the board does currently

2:52 PM

If he thinks any different he's a legend in his own mind.

Im referencing the first part ... They can as long as it is legal

You can't stop them from doing anything illegal....

2:53 PM

And you aren't the arbiter of legality either.

All members should try to keep us from doing that

2:54 PM

Part of being.a member

however, the realities of the rules around social distancing make an in-person election impractical to implement, thus I intend for it to be via electronic and mail-in proxy only. the candidates and bylaws amendments to be voted on will be well and widely known in advance, members may use any means available to discuss these issues among one another, and the voting period will be many days.

you might be taken serious if you didn't demostrate that you never know what the fuck you are talking about

2:54 PM

come at me grammar nazi's

the proxies will be directed and the secretary will execute them as such

There has to a voting meeting for proxies to work as someone has to vote using them (edited)

I do not know when we will be able to hold an on-site meeting without restrictions

Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about

That's what you call a "bad idea"

I intend to have perhaps a dozen or two members onsite for the counting

2:58 PM

a ~dozen will be myself + tabulators and the remainders observers

I'm not sure if u can bar some members in good standing and not others ... There is a bylaw about having same rights

2:58 PM

Privileges

the reality of COVID-19 room capacities will do for us

We could have it off site and outside

Hahahaha (edited)

your ability to throw up roadblocks is astounding

But I prefer online

We could have draco offsite permanently, thats an agenda item i can get behind

I don't know why we cannot just have it online?

oh but we need a massive bylaws rework for online so we're forever fucked until COVID-19 restrictions end

Are the list of statements of intent still who is running? https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Category:2020_Statements_of_Intent

Category:2020 Statements of Intent

@AGr - I believe Freddy untagged his SOI, so it should be

that is correct

No that is the part u are confused about ... Online meetings with votes ARE allowed ... Always have been ... It is online VOTING. Outside of a meeting that there is an issue

with all the horse shit lately you couldn't pay me to be a board member

1

Proxies are fine as long as there is voting at the meeting (edited)

Good job Eric, your lord and master draco approves

end of the day, the letter of the law says one thing with its basis in 19th century communication via post and newgfangled joint stock companies and concern that shareholders might get screwed out of their equity. we have none of that. what's being proposed is equitable to all members and little different from how the majority of votes were cast in all elections prior to 2019.

I just voted in a shareholder meeting and didn't get a chance to get on my soapbox

1

someone wants to come after us, they'll need to demonstrate harm ... which is going to be a tough hill to climb

So are u planning on not allowing voting at the meeting besides you?

however, the realities of the rules around social distancing make an in-person election impractical to implement, thus I intend for it to be via electronic and mail-in proxy only.

for the reading comprehension challenged

Proxies have to be voted by someone

lol

If you want to debate other rules, there's someone complaining about not being allowed to store their car here

3

2

3:09 PM

On talk

and I'm going to stop unhiding messages

3:12 PM

because I want this election over and would rather not run the dual risks of disenfranchising members and possibly being complicit in COVID-19 transmission through a large gathering

Well that is what a proxy is ... Response from David Griggs, the DMS general council: “a proxy must be executed by an eligible voting member and assigned to another eligible voting member who can carry the proxy to vote at a meeting.”

IDGAF

lol

Your solution is essentially not to have an election

No we just have one online

oh but we need a massive bylaws rework for online so we're forever fucked until COVID-19 restrictions end

that was your thinking when you put together that horrific bylaws proposal after a year of navel-gazing

3:16 PM

so please spare us your pearl-clutching non-solutions

You helped me put together that proposal

3:16 PM

With tapper

no, Tapper, myself, and Bert stripped that down to something that could at least be put in front of the membership since the "task force" wasn't going to produce a deliverable

3:18 PM

I am truly done with this subject for now

Ok

"task force" ROFLROFLROFLROFL

3:25 PM

thats rich

What Task Force? It was a bylaws discussion group last I heard

Are all the candidates who put in SOIs still members?

I have not verified this

4:00 PM

Will have to validate before ballots are prepared and sent

4:01 PM

I would hope that all candidates have maintained their memberships

Sounds good, just thought I'd ask because of everything these days. Would be helpful to see candidates reaffirm their intent to run.

I would hope that all candidates have maintained their memberships

@ESmith do you though?

5:51 PM

I mean half the candidates didn't lift a finger to help the space during the shutdown.

Are you assuming I'm unhappy?

@yashsedai You not unhappy. You a curmudgeon.

;)

I used fool becuase of its use in the phrase "not suffer fools"

@yashsedai I would describe myself as not suffering fools well, either. However, in my parlance, it translates to "I have a very low tolerance for people who are behaving in an annoying manner."

‍♀️ i have seen you snap at new ignorant/naive people on talk. Not really the best welcome to new members. I suppose raffi and draco are repeat offenders. But whatever it's not like my 2 cents counts for anything

9:09 PM

Also kobin won our science committee election can i resign since he was my vice chair and just be out?

9:11 PM

Do i have to make a talk post to resign?

I think that's how it's usually been done for as much as I've seen. I imagine you can just tell the board though if you're just done and don't want the attention.

I am rarely rude or unwelcoming

9:13 PM

They just don't like me much

I was referring to freddy

oh ok

And you and raffi annoy him regularly

@ferricyanide snap? i'd love to see an example

Really:) On the voting thread, seemed kind of angry.

lol draco is annoying but that has nothing to do with angry

9:18 PM

and nothing to do with the conversation above

I'm not here to argue, I'm here to laugh, amuse me clown.

I think the top down model for DMS doesn't work well without buy in .. Freddy you seem to take the view that it doesn't matter what people think... just ban them if they don't like it ... Am I wrong?

that last part was added on by rumor

which part is rumor?

ban them for not agreeing

ah

everyone who got banned this year earned it themselves

4

lol that would be the damn truth - the whole they earned it... (edited)

9:41 PM

Draco, my view is to accept input and make the best decision possible. This doesn't mean sit in meetings where people beat a dead horse for 3 fucking hours. There are some like you who exist solely to be annoying and detract from the conversation, if you were banned I might dance a jig, but it would need to be something bannable for it to occur.

But you are for a top-down approach, in that the board/officers make authoritative decisions for the membership regardless of if the membership agrees or buys into the decision?

Duh, thats the only way this works...That is literally their job, this isn't a damn democracy

9:45 PM

Not from an org leadership perspective

9:45 PM

Committees sure

9:45 PM

its sorta democratic

9:46 PM

but to leave the direction of the org to people who lack the knowledge or facilities to aprpeciate the long term impacts is insanity

1

9:46 PM

See draco and his crack team of bylaws folks

I think our differences lay in that I think the board is there in service to the membership. They MUST include them in things. (edited)

thats not how the space was set up

I think that you have zero clue about how functional business stay solvent and have proven it time and again. You pedant on about the dumbest shit and rules lawyer everything. The board's job is to run the org. The membership elect the board. The membership does not DIRECT the board. (edited)

The board has final say but for the most part should stay out of the way.

No, you are the perfect example of why that is the last fucking thing that should happen.

9:51 PM

Go make your own pedantspace and do that shit there.

Are we not having a friendly conversation or do I enrage you that much?

9:52 PM

Perhaps you should just ignore my posts

9:53 PM

if I annoy you or enrage you that much

9:53 PM

Take Brad's advice

Last i checked it was friendly and you don't enrage me at all. It's self evident that you lack the foresight or reasoning abilty to process higher order thinking. I'm just here to remind you it seems.

Thousands of drivers, what could possibly go wrong.

3

Well, you started cussing .. that was my clue (edited)

I find judicious use of profanity a perfect method of providing the stacatto needed to drive home points that you can't seem to grasp.

I don't care to enrage you or annoy you

9:57 PM

I find your opinions .. interesting but I disagree that they have been good for the space

9:57 PM

I'm talking about the ones above

9:57 PM

I'm sure your technological ones are just fine.

9:59 PM

Brad? Do you care to say something out loud or just whisper?

wat

Not to you, buddy.

Alrighty

I think if you like a version of DMS where the organization is generally paralyzed from being able to take coordinated action, and is ripe for opportunists to fleace as they will, Draco's version of things works well. That said, he's so deeply ingrained in his way of thinking it does no good to argue with him (or indeed to address him directly).

2

No, someone has to make a decision. This is not an uncommon issue in makerspaces. I'm all for pushing much of it down to committees and making strong committees.

10:10 PM

Committees are really the way people can contribute to running the space and have some sort of "ownership" in the space.

10:10 PM

That is important for volunteerism

10:10 PM

If you make all the decisions at the board level or enforce them downwards, you lose alot.

This is the last I'll say about Draco's way of thinking on the subject of committee empowerment. I invite anybody who thinks that there is a grain of truth to what he goes on about to take a look at wood shop funds over the last year and a half. That's a committee that has had its finances utterly gutted by ineffective management. Literally tens of thousands of dollars of wasted funds. Most of it within the rules, most of it bad for longevity of the space. If every committee was run the way that one had been for the last year and a half, This place simply couldn't continue to exist. We're very lucky that Paul has volunteered to take over. (edited)

2

for all the talk about community and democracy and buy-in and delegating authority to the wisdom of the membership that ship sailed long before I joined. the reality is that competent volunteers are few and far between, naysayers willing to subject drive-by criticism are legion, and processes are routinely abused to benefit select cliques. We. Are. Too. Large. for that to work, something that pretty much every study of organizational theory will confirm. Work with the motivated and stakeholders. Invite participation. But discount the opinions of the uninvolved and the back-benchers with their drive-by criticism.

6

10:43 PM

At this point in time I suspect that we're not going to see the dream of SRC3 realized

10:44 PM

The work is going to fall on too few volunteers who will struggle to execute projects while enforcing otherwise sensible rules that are detested by the malcontents

10:45 PM

from my perspective, the appeal to the membership is an appeal for stagnation

volunteers who will struggle to execute projects while enforcing otherwise sensible rules that are detested by the malcontents

boy do i feel that

sometimes I feel it's worse for you now than it was for me 2015-2017

for the most part its a lot better. but theres occasionally one asshole who makes a big stink

10:54 PM

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/pearce-uncalled-for-towing-ticket-on-my-car/72009/22

The company i work at has 99k employees, i have to get buy ins regularly and i delegate to my team. I think it's really more about organization. Chairs can delegate to their committees. There was only one chair meeting during my term. But chairs can organize among themselves and address the DnO as a whole. They could appoint a head chair/delegate. The general membership could be represented by the head of the membership meetings. That way it's less direct dealings with the board. I get the feeling thos was done in the past but hasn't been done recently.

no thats incorrect

10:57 PM

the membership meetings were a lot of people yelling at each other over what brand of power tool was better or what color to paint the walls

10:57 PM

and then no one wanted to show up to the member meetings to avoid it

the ones I remember being tolerable in ~2015 were principally the board and chairs giving reports about what was going on

back when the chairs actually gave reasonable reports

also, there's a bit more motivation at work since the carrots and sticks of employment are on the line

the chairs could also get stuff done because they were dictators by default

that too - they were it but also had the checkbook

originally we tried the consensus model for committees, where the committee members had to agree on stuff to spend money and such

By having to go to meetings it is the more involved members

that didn't work out well, so we moved to the "benevolent dictator" model for committee, where the chair was empowered to make decisions, but was urged to listen to the members

one occasionally sees a core of members that are committed to making things happen in a committee

something that people fail to realize though, is that while committee chairs and board members should listen to the members, they aren't required to do whatever it is the most vocal person yells

11:03 PM

chairs that didn't get a feel for what people want, have under performing committees and were typically replaced

the issue with committees having to vote on every little thing with everyone is that there was always that one guy who showed up and wanted to debate bullshit details into the ground and then people stop showing up to committee meetings

11:04 PM

along with drive by voting

basically the Draco's and Raffi's made meetings unbearable

drive by voting is why science has a long history of trying to make weird criteria for who gets to vote

11:05 PM

later attempted by woodshop and others

I was in one meeting this past year .. one

11:11 PM

member meeting

I feel like you missed the point

11:12 PM

which, coincidently, sort of provides backing for the point

1

the membership meetings were a lot of people yelling at each other over what brand of power tool was better or what color to paint the walls

@pearce

11:13 PM

and then no one wanted to show up to the member meetings to avoid it

@pearce

11:13 PM

just to repost for you

if someone has an example of an organization of our scale roughly structured like us but manages the harmonious delegation of as much authority as possible to the membership for organic management of operations and strategic initiatives, I expect that present - and future - leadership would be all ears

1

Honestly though even at large companies I've never been in a meeting as large as the member meeting where people expected to have direct input. Anything that large was like a quarterly status meeting, there were questions at the end but I wouldn't ever try and sit 50 people in a room and make a decision.

2

and even then at those meetings the questions can go into the weeds real quick - but the carrot and stick of employment does tend to limit them to a degree

I mean let's be honest here, what a paying company also gets you is people trained and skilled at leadership. Even if questions start to veer off, you have people that know how to keep the discussion on track and make sure everyone feels like they were heard. Our leadership is free, and they're damn good for the price, but I feel like there's room for improvement from all sides.

I went to 2 member meetings one had like 4 people and just dissolved. The other had less than 10. But if you are saying that member meetings used to have 50 people, that is closer to the head count of my sorority in college. We had weekly meetings and had an agenda and strictly followed Roberts rules of order. Older members taught newer members. Obviously not paid then.

11:28 PM

We did have a sister that was in charge of enforcing the rules. Typically we almost never went over the hour.

member meetings have pretty much no explicit authority to perform business

I don't see why they can't discuss things that are brought to the board. Why not toss around ideas and hash out things before approaching the board on things that make sense

11:30 PM

Less legwork for the board

11:31 PM

Delegated down and considered

11:31 PM

It's prediscussed before the board meeting.

we've tried to encourage this

11:38 PM

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/make-dms-board-member-meetings-better-through-dms-src3/54822

11:39 PM

but ... member motivation

11:41 PM

someone wants to run with that proposal, use it as the basis for another different proposal - have at (edited)

Sounds reasonable to me. Did this just never start?

I'm up for having regular member meetings again

11:52 PM

Oh btw the reason i didn't go to many last year for the summer months they didn't schedule any and I left at the beginning of October

11:53 PM

There are some really good ideas surrounding them that I think for many they will make them more bearable/enjoyable

11:53 PM

Oh here we go ... Freddy... what?

Ah okay. I couldn't remember any recently

well this year a certain someone made everyone think that member meetings had to be mailed out officially or some bullshit, so a lot of people stopped trying all together

1

Only the ones that people can vote at

11:55 PM

and that could have been fixed easily .. with no mail out .. I explained that many times

11:56 PM

Hopefully we will fix that coming up and then we won't have to snail mail again

you keep conflating the annual meeting and the member meetings though

11:56 PM

and thats the issue

There is nothing special about an annual meeting except it is once a year .. member meetings follow the same rules

11:57 PM

We happen to hold elections at our annual member meeting (edited)

the member meetings are simply trying to do what @ferricyanide was talking about, and you keep trying to make them the same as annual meetings

11:59 PM

we can have a discussion at a member meeting to bring an issue to the board just to poll the room and decide on if it needs to be moved up, but because you hear the word "vote" you think the state is going to be there shitting its pants over procedure

All that is required ... You put on the place where you sign up for Voting Rights, a click through agreement saying that we will use your registered email as your notice, click here to agree and click Get Voting Rights ... then everyone that has voting rights just needs to go by and click it .. then boom .. no more snail mail

Member meetings can do three things: 1. Elect directors at an annual meeting (⅓ quroum) 2. Amend the bylaws at a special or otherwise properly notified meeting (⅔ quorum) 3. Remove directors at any duly constituted meeting (⅔ quorum) (edited)

the monthly membership meetings used to serve as updates for committes to board, inform other people what other sides of the space were doing and then people like draco decided to try and claim they were legal meetings that needed all sorts of bullshit

12:01 AM

when they basically only shared a name because we didnt have anything better to call them

If you want to schedule some sort of member gathering .. there are no laws covering it .. go for it .. do what you like If you want to schedule Regular Member Meetings which is what the rules had you do and what they were being called with the President leading them ... then you follow the laws covering Regular member meetings

Outside of the annual meeting, membership meetings have rarely hit ⅓ quorum, and pretty much never have actionable agenda items - and in my experience the membership is never notified (edited)

1

i just realized i dont care, because the membership meetings didnt get anything done and trying to get chairs to give any kind of update that wasnt bullshit was like pulling teeth

Or what draco

12:04 AM

You gonna sue?

Committee Chairs generally haven't attended even the informal meetings we used to have

No need

12:04 AM

We already have enough problems with suits on our Insurance

No? Then shut the fuck up about it

Or what Freddy

Nobody believes your worthless ass opinion about any of it

12:05 AM

All you do is confuse the membership with your retarded ranting

Why do you have to be so abusive?

Why do you have to be a pedantic annoyance?

I already told you .. just put me on ignore .. it will be calmer for you

i would lay a good portion of the blame of the failure of membership meetings to come back in any useful fashion at dracos fearmongering

1

Most of our membership are conflict averse

Or the boards attempt to control topics in it rather than letting people talk about what they wanted to talk about

if not fearmongering, beating people over the head with armchair lawyering

So sounds like they needed a good moderator

2

Yes

12:08 AM

I think it should membership voted

Lol hahahha

12:08 AM

That's rich

those were board meetings draco

12:08 AM

not membership meetings

This isnt school where everyone gets a trophy

No .. the last member meeting I went to .. you and Freddy were not there .. they kept trying to push topics to the board office hours instead allowing the conversation to continue

Its business

I'd like to encourage Draco to look at both the bylaws and Certificate of Formation which state unambiguously that the corporation's affairs shall be governed by Directors

Oh I am well aware that it should be governed by the Board of Directors.

But Erik, we need to have the membership vote

12:10 AM

Gotta vote guyz

12:11 AM

I can conflate so much bullshit and waste everyone's time and I might get my way

We are a different animal than most corporations. We are all volunteers.

How about you volunteer to never talk about rules or bylaws again

I've put forward my ideas for more membership involvement in that old Talk thread. Someone else can run with it - perhaps take the step towards the membership filtering agenda items for the Board and also taking ownership of the life cycle of agenda items

12:13 AM

Anyway, work starts at 0700 tomorrow so I'm stepping out

If you want more volunteer involvement how about stop running people off

If you want people to volunteer how about you stop being a pedant rule lawyering annoyance

Calling them trolls or undesirables or whatever it is

You are a troll

12:14 AM

AND undesirable at this point (edited)

oh Freddy ...

12:14 AM

lol

12:14 AM

You really don't get it

12:15 AM

oh well

Oh I get it well. You think you are helping.

12:15 AM

This is a post draco dms

You are right about me being undesirable here .. most people on this chat are of the similar mindset (edited)

12:15 AM

I don't know why I get on here

12:16 AM

I guess that is my fault

To be reminded how much of a pedant you are?

hehehe

Just now seeing all these so to throw back to yesterday, nope. I don't assume you're unhappy Freddy. Looking into the science behind a particular emotion or behavior doesn't mean you're going to magically improve in that area nor that you want to. I do think your interpersonal interactions could be improved, partially based on what I've seen and partially based on the (seemingly) general consensus, however I also believe everyone has ways they can improve. Self improvement/growth is lifelong. And I agree with Pearce's comments. "Fool" is def an opinion. Lastly- I'm with ya'll on the election. It's not safe to meet together. Texas is spiking in cases as it is.

I wanted to add a few things after finishing the thread- I agree with a lot of the issues and that the space is too large for certain kinds of management. One thing I am straight up guilty of is jumping into (being talked into really) a position that I knew nothing about. I think for the chairs/vice chairs/etc there needs to be a STANDARDIZED SOP (Standard Operating Procedures) that outlines the expectations of that position to include: -Responsibilities -What powers you do and do not have -contact info for all other chairs/board members -Expectations such as meetings/paperwork -EXAMPLES OF PAPERWORK including FORMATS and blank copies etc. I know the wiki exists and tbh it blows as far as being "user friendly" Having a dedicated dropbox/google box/whatever for each committee would be so helpful in keeping valuable data accessible and transparent. I struggled learning about what to do with PR and got a lot of flack when I asked questions or tried to get involved. Regardless of if it annoyed people or not, I was new and trying. It almost turned me off of the space in all honesty. So tl;dr I propose standardized manuals, localized records, and maybe minimum requirements for people running for chairs.

6:57 AM

Lastly, (sorry I know I'm being lengthy) I think that the monthly member potlucks should come back. It would be a great time/place to remind people of meetings and the ones I went to were fantastic and really encouraged people to meet each other in a fun and friendly atmosphere. I met a lot of people I normally wouldn't. Fostering community is important. People have to care about more than just the space if you want them to volunteer. Otherwise they will think "well I pay my dues so someone else can do the work" rather than having a vested interest in the -community- they -donate- to.

Everyone hates the wiki, but few work to improve it

I know nothing about wiki- I think that it's fine for it's purpose (which is general and legal it seems) but we could do more as far as education people about their positions and expectations.

7:01 AM

There is a reason Wikipedia added Simple English as an option. I get people not wanting to write manuals. I've written one from scratch for the undergrad research program I ran in Parklands ED a few years back and it was hard. It also made my life, my bosses life, and the students lives SO much easier. There could be a base manual for things expected from every chair/vice chair/whatever and the committees could add on any nuances.

7:01 AM

*know nothing as far as how to edit it

I've done tech writing throughout my professional career

7:47 AM

the visual editor has been working fine for some time on the wiki

That would be a fun class to attend hinthint

7:47 AM

I'm not comfortable editing the wiki. That's def a job that has to have position and permission behind it.

yeah, I've not taught a class and am not motivated to change that

2

It's not for everyone

wiki source formatting has some ickiness to it if you've not dealt with that sort of thing before, but you generally only need it now for tagging, otherwise the visual editor is a lot like a word processor

7:53 AM

if we want to go with another platform for less ... legalese ... documentation, that's fine, but the entire org should go that way rather than committees going off their own direction, which tends to change with each subsequent chair

I agree. That's why I stated a baseline rulebook with nuances specific to the committees added...and probably submitted for board approval for transparency. Keep all the manuals in one gdrive

As a lame duck board member that is at least 3-4 months past his prime. I can say without fear of not making this years electorial cut that finding good chairs and officers is crucial to surviving in the next year or two. We have had some exceptional volunteers and officers that kept things functional and improving. BUT we have had some chairs of our biggest committees that utterly sucked and took advantage of DMS. Woodshop is now under great leadership and at a really critical time for their committee. 3D Fab needs leadership more concerned about members success in printing and less gatekeeping or self aggrandizement for conventions.

6

nose goes

Manuals would be a great idea for incoming chairs, a mammoth effort though since most chairs seem busy enough keeping up with the day to day, not to mention the extra "challenges" of late.

9:56 AM

Maybe that could be a vice chair task?

LOL Ken, you so nice

@nutterbutter I agree that a roles/responsibilities guide/document would be helpful to all involved. @yashsedai I could say much more but best to stop there.

3

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/2020-annual-meeting-elections-info/68873/3

Has anyone considered wether we're shifting the whole election cycle or just electing this slate of directors for 9 months? I guess that applies to chairs too

that can is being kicked down the road

9:12 AM

although if the bylaws amendments pass then yes, the next Board term will be quite short

2

Those poor souls!

We can get a trial version of a board of directors. Money back guarantee

3

My license expired a couple months ago.

just change your system clock

12:55 PM

and hope the app doesn't bother to check with any NTP servers

Mine too Ken

3:32 PM

Also, if the next board has a short term they are some lucky sumbitches (edited)

I think they should know that the term will be short in order to get them back into the normal schedule

Is there some reason we care that elections happen in the spring?

^ That was my thought. I figured elections would just be pushed back for all time. I was just curious because of the term length. If we go for a short term, chairs now being elected would have 3-4 months before new elections

Keeping the schedule is supposed to prevent a board from extending it's time through pushing out dates

3:57 PM

I suppose we could just put new hardline dates in

3:59 PM

Like the last board that used their extra month.5 to spend a fuck ton of money

2

laughing @ phrasing; not the action. That was NOT funny.

I thought we put the dates in the rules or bylaws or something though

I thought TheSecretary's rewrites were to do that. Didn't think it'd BEEN done yet...

I don't think its in there yet, I'm pretty sure I recall last year's pedantry around "one year or until a successor board is elected" or some such.

Ah

4:09 PM

I cant seem to keep track of all the bullshit anymore

I suppose we could just put new hardline dates in

@pearce one of the bylaws amendments hard-codes April as annual meeting time, that a board election shall occur at the annual meeting, and that the annual meeting is a definitive end of a director's term (edited)

covid-19 is convincing me that hard dates in the bylaws might not be such a great idea.

1

exigent circumstances can always be argued

Given our pendants maybe that should be explicit.

no matter how tight the weave, a pedant can always find a loophole, exception, weird interpretation of case law, or magick something into existence if sufficiently desperate

4

Are you planning on presenting the bylaws amendments as a package deal or letting people cherry pick the ones ~~that bennefit them~~ they like best? (edited)

they're packaged into ... 4 or 5

i found an updated pic of @Draco

1:23 PM

Can we keep this crap out of politics? Maybe just quit it altogether?

If I remember my highschool bully etiquette, it'll get worse as it's ignored and eventually either go away or result in suspension. But, it's been a minute.

3

@merissa nah

Ok, more use of the mute button it is then

@michaelb you are calling me a bully now? How laughable.. try it with draco and his crap

2:48 PM

@merissa whatever suits you

I think draco is annoying and argumentative but i dont think he tends to make fun of people. Unless i have missed it somewhere.

I tried but I can't think of a more accurate description of your post, so yes.

It's ok that you cant see the bigger picture. My post is to his asinine comments about the finance policy.

Novel idea Merissa, I like it:)

2

Bye nutterbutter

He

I feel like such a rebel.

1

Draco's a bully too, he just doesn't do it by name calling. Instead he just gaslights and trolls the people he doesn't like

4:17 PM

Is a bully still a bully if the bully is bullying a bully who was bullying?

4:18 PM

Say that ten times, fast

geta tongue tied

If we collaborated on anything, I would have lost support. If you got any PPE at all from my promotion efforts, just be thankful for the support...

@mark.randall how does this fit with your belief we should try to work together?

Note for those who don't want to find the original convo, Mark was saying how he didn't help with the PPE building because he would have lost support.

Thanks for the context, I missed that

Lost support for what?

honestly, I'm not sure, I guess from his clique?

from the blue tape crew

10:23 PM

vodka night bro

haha

at a loss for tagging candidates in individual posts to answer questions from yesterday...

6:06 PM

is the idea for candidates to respond in individual threads?

One thead would be better.

is it for candidates that weren't in attendance or had to drop out?

So people see every response, not just the responses of the arguments against Kevin's "everyone gets free stuff if they vote for me"

lol

6:09 PM

John did say this is how he was going to post it...

I have a question. Exactly WHO would ask KEVIN of all people for advice regarding getting added to the "voting" AD list? (his TALK whine where he is pointing fingers states that he (kevin) is getting a lot of questions about voting.

1

"people" asked him, like you know, he knows everyone, from all those classes he taught on how do do digital medias and stuff.

All the best people, the ones everybody knows. They're all talking about. Everyone's talking about how he's the smarterest one. They all call him up and say he's the best.

3

The head of digital media who's apparently the world's greatest inventor can't figure out the site is the same site just http and https...

1

Let's all sing a chorus of Bob Dylan's "Tangled up in Blue" but add "Tape" after "Blue."

2

Keep fronting James

1

Keep being a pedant draco

Draco, you legit thought a conflict of interest policy (a thing that we have to uphold by law) somehow was a non-compete, I'm still waiting to hear that logic

appears draco the dagron might not much on educat him

fun fact, when we filed our paperwork for the 501c3 weren't just aware of what a conflict of interest was, we took steps to ensure there wasn't even an appearance of it with our paperwork

I don't respond to people that have me on ignore, FYI

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/IRS_Form_1023_Draft/Attachment#Attachment_5_Re_Part_V.2C_Section_2a

Attachment

8:31 PM

Andrew Lecody and Nicole Greeley are engaged to be married.

how do you know though

Pretty easy, you just try and add an emoji and if they have you on ignore, it backs it out

he uses his might dagron skills

IRS Form 1023 even asks if you have a conflict of interest policy

So, no point in responding to people that choose not to read it

lol

ps

he still reads it

I just don't want PMs

lol

8:36 PM

from me or anyone?

8:36 PM

(i just messaged him)

from draco

what suprises the hell out of me, is that dagron the delusional isn't out in seattle at the chop, they totally seem like his kind of people, the more i watched and listened today the more i realized this

Hell no.. not moving to Seattle with all that

8:38 PM

can't really stand SJWs either

and yet, your behavior is all about social justice

8:38 PM

both you and rafael

8:40 PM

on a more relevant note andrew, if you have time i need a few minutes of it later

8:40 PM

obviously when you aren't playing destiny

lol

I've explained why I do what I do elsewhere. I want small federal government. That is what I want for the DMS administration. Leave it to the committee governments. Committee Government is in the Bylaws, before you harp on that.

CHAZ

lol

8:42 PM

i don't think he will try to occupy the space

No lol

I think our rules need to be easy to understand for the average member, if we are to expect that they follow them. We have over 25 thousand words in our non-committee rules and policies.. I doubt anyone understands them all.

You assume that the average committee chairman is interested in having to monitor governance in their area. My personal observation is that the ones that don't want board interference tend to be people who want to pad their own pockets in some manner.

I do think we need to provide leadership training, recruit and develop people

9:00 PM

I think it is a process to build strong committees and leaders.

9:03 PM

The best leaders are the people that people follow naturally.

The process begins by not trying to constantly shove bs down people's throats like you are famous for. It begins by common sense, logical discussions, not edge case scenarios that require you to invoke a lawyer.

9:03 PM

We don't have the luxury of being choosy about leadership

9:04 PM

We have no real benefit to offer, it is all by the grace of volunteers

I think our rules need to be easy to understand for the average member, if we are to expect that they follow them.

@Draco You are literally the only person who has a problem understanding the rules lately. And I'll take the piss out of Kevin all I want. He posted a lie about our conversation on talk, I posted the rest and he moved the goal posts. He won't answer any of the questions that aren't softballs.

9:07 PM

Y'all are like 15 bans are too much! But no one will own up to who they wouldn't have banned...

1

@yashsedai You are right, we don't have the luxury currently to be choosy because many people have been run off for various reasons. We are at a low point. It goes into why people volunteer in the first place. There are several reasons. Some just like supporting DMS, Tim would be a good example but others enjoy the community and the social aspects. The D&O has decided it best to try their best to keep people from sleeping at the space and clean house as some have said. This doesn't help volunteerism.

@quattroquattro it's called cowardice.

15 bands are too much. Gotta break that out onto two stages minimum.

3

@Draco I don't know why I'm talking to you, after your harassing me on Facebook and rage quit bullshit you can piss off (edited)

1

@Draco simple question, are people entitled to sleep at the space? (edited)

It is NOT that people don't deserve to be banned. It is the stark change in the way people have been treated. As in holding the vast majority of board meetings in secret. Rumors spread easily. People feel like if they speak up, they will get banned. It doesn't make for a friendly place.

The best leaders are the people that people follow naturally.

@Draco Not necessarily true. There are people who are quite charismatic, and people flock to them, but are not good leaders. (witness many televangelists who have fleeced their flocks.) (edited)

LITERALLY NOBODY HAS EVER BEEN BANNED FOR SPEAKING UP BY THIS BOARD

9:11 PM

Are board meetings really secret when they have meeting minutes?

Doesn't matter the reasons if the reasons are not trusted.

Trusted by who?

9:12 PM

You?

9:12 PM

Stan?

9:12 PM

Kris?

9:12 PM

You seem to have conveniently forgotten this issue was created by Kris

It's funny I just blocked him and I can pretty much guess what Draco is winging about

She walked around and made the claims that people were gonna get banned for speaking up

9:12 PM

So did Stan

Previous boards had public meetings where all members could come and see what was happening. This board decided to change this and have mostly private meetings. This leads to rumors and FUD

yeah, it was way better when the board held a circus show to ban people because those people found evidence of fraud

9:13 PM

we should go back to that board

The only person who is causing FUD is you

9:13 PM

You constantly bring it up as if it is real. It's not at all and you have yet to provide even a SHRED of evidence to the contrary

If there was ever a board to ban people for speaking up it was the board that banned people for saying we might be headed towards financial trouble

remember how vocal Draco was when we had a board member committing fraud and going after whistleblowers?

9:14 PM

oh right, that didn't happen, he supported that because "this isn't a clubhouse anymore"

4

9:15 PM

I literally sent Draco the evidence of the fraud because he asked

9:15 PM

he kept defending lol

Well, after his reading of the financial policy, I can't say I'm surprised he could interpret it

I am not for Kris or Stan being reinstated until they decide to come forth and ask for a hearing to present their case. Then and only then the board might decide to reconsider. Until then it is a moot point.

Also dagron, you never answered my question, are people entitled to sleep at the space?

9:17 PM

If so, why.

They are allowed to nap in the sitting position per the rules.

9:17 PM

for I believe 20 min at a time

So explain your statement above then?

9:20 PM

You act like the D&O are being harsh?

9:20 PM

For enforcing said rule?

9:20 PM

And what does that have to do with volunteers?

9:20 PM

You think our volunteers sleep at the space?

9:20 PM

I'll take a percentage

What I was referring to is the expansion of sleeping at the space to include things like red cups and other inexpensive comforts (edited)

9:21 PM

It has been used many times as the excuse to not provide comfort

Oh, so now the members are entitled to red cups?

Not entitled

9:21 PM

no

But thats what you are saying

No, I'm saying that many people in this administration are purposely running people off

You are literally arguing that because red cups are cheap DMS should provide them, and that if they don't they are being cheap?

9:22 PM

How are they doing that?

9:22 PM

Who is being run off?

red cups is an example ...

Of what?

9:22 PM

how do red cups = people being run off?

Of things that were done in the name of not wanting people to feel comfortable

In a time where DMS charged members who couldnt use the space, and cannot provide many of the things they normally do (I.E the fridge and ice) are cups that big of a deal?

1

Oddly now that no one lives at the space no one complains about red cups.

1

How were people made to feel "uncomfortable"?

This started many months before Covid

You mean asking captain and beth to clean up?

9:24 PM

because people don't want to sit in an area that has 47 packages of single serve silverware and 23 bags from tif's treats?

9:24 PM

Cause last i checked captain and beth are still members

That was another instance .. cleaning up had nothing to do with it .. people threatened to put their stuff in lost and found if they stayed too long AFK ...

I just saw them the other day, they seemed happy when we talked

They have adapted but many have not

People threatened to put their stuff in lost and found when they left it unatteneded when they were not at the space.

9:25 PM

So now we should have assigned seats in the common room to "make people feel comfortable" ? How would that work?

9:25 PM

Are some pigs more equal than others?

Beth seems fine to me, and she is leaving her personal items in the common room every single day. I don't think anybody's moved them into purgatory or even really bitched at her about it yet.

So if we let everyone do it, then it will look like their old red pickup?

Many of the officers including you @yashsedai have yelled at people many times in front of other members. This is not appropriate. Julie was seen laughing about it.

Oh, so now its about yelling at people

9:26 PM

And in what context did that occur?

Draco, where was your concern when your friends were sexually harassing women and running them off?

It is a combination of things

9:27 PM

not one

Keep telling us

9:27 PM

I'm listening

that is pretty shitty. I got yelled at for useing the loading ramp recently... like I cant use the ramp for 5 min?

@Pondit you might just hold up before you believe this bs

1

depends what you were doing on the ramp

Im not saying you did anyting, I dont know you. I just know im a member and didnt feel welcome there yesterday.

not sure who yelled at you

@aceat64 ... I am definitely not for people sexually harassing anyone

Ask around, if I raised my voice, it was for a legit reason.

Doesn't matter if you think it was legit .. it wasn't appropriate for an officer

9:29 PM

and it causes problems with others

Draco, sorry bud, there are some situations where somone has to be in charge.

There ya go .. not understanding leadership and thinking yelling is the answer

There you go not understanding that all resources are exhausted before raising voices.

9:30 PM

And how dare you assume anything. Were you there?

9:30 PM

Nah, you weren't

like that time i yelled at larry garcia?

lol prolly

was that an instance you are speaking of @Draco ?

It wasn't Larry ..

Then who was it?

yeah, love the Draco crew saying @pearce yelled at Larry, when I was there and it wasn't even heated, Pearce was really nice about it

9:34 PM

and there's an audio recording proving that

was it paden?

I'm not saying anything about Larry

9:35 PM

How many people have you yelled at, at the space anyway?

thats what im asking for

I would like to know that as well

he never has specifics, except for the provably wrong stuff

1

@yashsedai care to enlighten us?

you seem to be lacking any evidence

I'm not providing it here

I know the number and can name the instances and what it was about

"officers yell at people, trust me" -guy who can't be trusted

Sounds like your full of it then dagron

Draco is always lacking evidence, and now the goal posts will be moved...

2

But in general if you feel you have to yell at a member, and do so, it better be an emergency

cant post it here, too dangerous

how do i say this dagron? "put up or shut up"

might get called out

I have no reason to release it here

You have no reason because you don't know

9:37 PM

You just "know" what you heard

shrugs .. the interviews will come out

oooooo the interviews

oh?

that movie wasn't very good imo

like joe king? where i wasnt an officer

LOL like joe king

I think he should post it on talk, that last hit piece he tried on me went well for him. Lol.

My point wasn't specific .. it was general ..

sounds like it was bullshit cause you have no proof

@yashsedai admits he yells at members in front of others

cite or it didn't happen

this is a problem

Context is everything buddy

yeah youre gonna have to do better

9:39 PM

it takes a lot to get me to yell

you gonna trot out ole mark who refused to leave?

9:39 PM

maybe the multiple trespassings

9:39 PM

or the crazy guy

9:39 PM

or the metal shop incident

9:39 PM

which one draco

9:40 PM

how about zach of all trades

9:40 PM

pearce was really nice about it

@aceat64 (edited)

So dagron, what does this have to do with the DMS now?

9:41 PM

I'm neither officer nor potential board member

he used his "retail manager" skills

people who threaten my volunteers dont get to yell at me and then expect me to sing them a song

You know the thing is, all this shit Draco and the blue tape crew stir up is so disconnected from the actual activity at the space. It's been really nice being around all the makers and new volunteers. Seeing the expansion proceeding and all its been really wonderful

maybe Draco's mad that someone yelled at the guy who threatened to punch Mel because she asked if he'd move his motorcycle from infront of the door for a bit so she could move some stuff (edited)

claiming "he yelled at me and hurt my feels" doesnt apply when someone is doing something unsafe and it needs to be stopped quickly

The machine shop group is kick ass, jewelry and ceramics are doing great, Paul did a great job with woodshop, Michael with laser,

God damn if your fee fees get hurt because someone "took a tone with you" maybe figure out your shit (edited)

I'm not complaining about the committees or expansion .. except perhaps when it was done

9:45 PM

I think both of those are great

"I'm not complaining" -guy who is complaining

Lots of thanks needs to be given for all of that

this is fun

1

It's been great working on growth and progress. All this complaining is really just them being mad they don't get their way anymore and can't have vodka night at the picnic table anymore

but muh booze

1

They actually mention booze on their campaign site

the drinking game was last night but i still have some everclear left....

1

fun fact, insurance told us IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that we CAN NOT have alcohol on site

Oh don't worry vodka night James ... another unneeded thing done in an unscheduled meeting to make people feel uncomfortable

9:48 PM

Specifically .. people that hung around Kris ... it was on purpose

Booze and power tools, what could go wrong

I can't believe 'vodka night' gets brought up this much, made for an entertaining tuesday night. Unless there's some other non-tuesday event I don't know about (edited)

Nothing did go wrong, James

9:48 PM

except people dancing

for what its worth, i was drinking AT HOME....

Fun fact: If an insurance company says no alcohol then its in the best interest not to have any.

2

It is easy to get insurance for it

9:49 PM

which has been pointed out many times

9:49 PM

not expensive

Okay

9:49 PM

but insurance company said

9:49 PM

No

I'm sorry what world do you live in where you think drinking around power tools is fine

9:49 PM

one mistake and the DMS is shut down

i havent been this desperate to drink somewhere since i was a minor.

1

what mental gymnastics are you doing to try and validate that?

No I don't think being drunk at the space is good at all

lasers and alcohol are a delightful combination.... but not one i suggest

Goal post move in 5.4.3.2.1

As far as powertools ... getting to that James

It is easy to get insurance for it

@Draco it literally isn't

I can't even see his posts but he's that predictable

I can tell you have never talked to an insurance broker about this

we arent a bar

I'm sure theres plenty of isopropyl waiting to be consumed. Have at it.

There hasn't been an incident and I think people can make sure people aren't using dangerous tools while drunk.

there's almost no insurance companies that will insure DMS period

you have the worst arguments

in fact, I think drunk people should be made to leave

"just because it hasn't happen doesnt it mean it will" is what you sound like

yeah, make them drive home, good policy

you are a fool and im thankful you arent running for board

5

How about make them get a cab or Uber?

and if they don't?

or... and a wild idea, just don't let them drink on the property

9:52 PM

problem solved

we have had incidents

Kris literally danced drunk on a table at DMS, while president

I've already mentioned that earlier

9:53 PM

pay attention

but it's more than just problems with power tools, people drink and become violent

There hasn't been an incident and I think people can make sure people aren't using dangerous tools while drunk.

@Draco so false it's laughable

Kris literally danced drunk on a table at DMS, while president

@aceat64

If you think a table is a powertool ... lol

members shouldnt have to stop drunk members for doing things.

nacho pulled the fire alarm while drunk, the fire department wasted resources coming out to what they thought was an emergency, AND THEN kris decided it was a good idea to lie to the fire department about it and cover up for him

you know what really helps retain members, having to deal with drunk people, everyone loves doing that when they're just trying to build stuff

I think he should have used that on his SoI ... "Fire drills every month"

lets get drunk guys and do stupid shit, like pull fire alarms, sexually harass people, start fights

There were two other alcohol related incidents that involved the cops

lol

but talk about moving the goalposts .... This didn't start out talking about alcohol ... just another example (edited)

9:55 PM

of many

because that's what you do

an example of your impotence?

9:55 PM

i mean insolence?

oh yeah

9:55 PM

give us instances of me yelling at people

"I go these secret things I dont wanna talk about to garner intrigue"

9:56 PM

childish

he ain't got any

its a real shame people cant keep things civil in here

More insults .. come to expect it from Freddy

9:56 PM

@Pondit ... I am sorry

9:57 PM

We have alot of bad blood at the space ... and this is one of the camps

impotence is an accurate statement

9:57 PM

google it

well having my friends sexually harassed, getting attacked for discovering fraud and then to have my rep constantly shat on tends to make one a bit upset

@Pondit Draco personally harassed me outside of the space

9:58 PM

I have zero respect for him.

Oh you mean telling you I didn't want you on the board in a PM?

Draco's "camp" also likes to threaten to hit people, so I'd say some mean text chat is pretty civil

The discussion is somewhere far above here, but what he did in the interest of being king of the keyboard warriors was inexcusable

@aceat64 you seem to enjoy making frivolous law suits to previous board members

9:59 PM

costing DMS

incorrect

9:59 PM

DMS has spent no money on it, because it doesn't involve them

9:59 PM

and all I asked for was an apology

Sorry .. DMS Insurance paid

it's your friends who decided apologizing for lying about me was a bridge too far

and is paying

10:00 PM

The first judge decided to dismiss it

yeah, that's standard for these suits

10:00 PM

it always goes to appeals

10:00 PM

it's a filter

what ever you gotta do to spin it in your favor I guess

It doesn't always go to appeals ... you have to submit it

your friends said I committed a crime, because as a member of the finance team I pointed out to the membership that they were lying about the state of our finances

You decided you didn't think it was fair to pay the legal costs

the current board turned the finances around, DMS would have already died

something like $12 thousand

I asked for an apology long before it went to court

10:02 PM

that's how this works Draco

As far as the finances .. we did go negative net income but that was expected, we had saved for it

their response was literally "we have nothing to apologize for, see you in court"

We didn't spend a penny on the suit. We did lose a lot of dollars to dracos friends Kris and Stan ripping us off

your friends decided to waste the insurance money on this

Insurance rate didn't change...

DMS insurance sure is paying .. how many more frivolous law suits before we don't have D&O protection?

Draco, there's literally emails from the 3rd party accounting firm saying you're wrong

seems like your friends are just wanting to waste time on a lawsuit where all they needed to do was apologize

10:04 PM

MarkdownContext { Depth = 1 }

I'll still accept an apology

Apologize for suspending him for 9 months? Or putting his name in the minutes?

I'd accept reimbursement for all the money they stole from the membership

I would like an apology for their inappropriate behavior involving removing the finance team

I believe I heard that Kris had already paid back anything the bookkeeper thought was off

your friends literally removed all oversight on finances WHILE STEALING

10:05 PM

and you think they're the good guys

I don't support Kris

1

Draco, the evidence is on the fucking wiki, she didn't

10:06 PM

keep your head in the sand

Well, I just know the judge didn't think it was worth going through with a trial and dismissed it

you victim blame literally every time involving your friends

1

I believe he also had a strong talk to your attorney as well

here's how I know you are full of shit

10:07 PM

the judge was a WOMAN

I wasn't there

clearly

exactly. You are providing arguments that any tv lawyer would object to as "hearsay"

feel free to grab the transcript from the court Draco

Sherry Shipman

10:08 PM

or somethign like that

Draco, do you think asking for an apology is unreasonable?

Sorry for not using the proper pronoun

10:10 PM

I think suing over it is

10:10 PM

I mean what could even be your damages?

10:11 PM

monetarily?

yes

the og filing didnt have damages

harm to my reputation (which they did by lying) harms my ability to find work

That it is in the minutes?

10:12 PM

We have a standing rule that provides for it to not be scrubbed of identifying information.

that's irrelevant, the issue is that they lied

10:12 PM

they claimed I violated a law which doesn't exist, by telling them membership about the state of the finances

10:13 PM

"violated attorney client privilege"

10:13 PM

their own lawyer in the meeting told them that was not correct

1

10:13 PM

Kris literally told him to shut up lol

10:14 PM

your friends made provably false claims about my character and actions, in order to hide fraud

10:14 PM

but keep defending them

They can ban you from the space for things that are not against' the law. You are claiming that because someone accused you of breaking a law, even if the law doesn't exist .. that you are entitled to damages? (edited)

I'm cool being the boogie man for your "camp" with this (edited)

10:15 PM

yes, that's how defamation works

Well, the court has say in this .. and the first judge didn't agree

again, look up defamation cases in Texas, that's how this works

maybe go read the damn court documents....

the first judge almost always kicks it off to someone else

Naw .. most of the time it is appealed because people don't like the judgement

local courts aren't often keen to handle these sorts of cases

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10:17 PM

https://tenor.com/M2yI.gif

10:17 PM

It was just something you put up there to keep Kris and them out of power anyway

Draco, you confused a conflict of interest with a non-compete, your legal insight is lacking

1

Only took me 30 minutes.

at least that was the result

I suck at discord

1

lol how does a lawsuit do that

Fun fact, Non-Competes are almost impossible to enforce.

1

yup

10:19 PM

I've signed a few

When you convince the board to reinstate you and make sure that all of you do not get appointed to any position?

if its someones only way of making a living, the judge will often make exceptions

I wasn't present during any of that Draco, and I didn't talk to the board about any of that, but keep living in your fantasy where I'm some mastermind pulling all the strings

Ken is on the board

10:20 PM

Ken was a part of all of it

Texas goes even further, of your role didn't entitle you to knowledge of the company strategy they won't enforce it

Texas won't really enforce non-competes except for stuff involving IP

So only VP or c level

I think I've only seen it successful for sales guys who took their client list lol

Yeah, he was privy to strategy

10:21 PM

With the client list

10:21 PM

That I've seen

Draco. What exactly is your argument

Blue Hair Man Bad

Hey James .. What email list are you using to send out campaign emails?

I should probably change my name, this one is getting boring

Blue haired man not terrible in my opinion...

Are you using Active Directory?

10:22 PM

to get your emails?

here we go, changed my name some

Well at least you aren't hated anymore

satying out of this, but you are the Diet Coke of Evil

2

Me?

no, my smurf buddy

oh lol

as in, its a funny joke from mike myers

Just don't call him a "skittle head" .. he put that in his suit

Draco. I am curious. Why the hard defense of people who wronged the space

People that have wronged the space .. should be punished ... keeping all of the process private and in unscheduled meetings is not how we have handled things before this year. It causes rumors and issues. I want the new board to be upfront and build trust.

You caused rumors

1

What would that be?

@doug.emes technically the smurfs don't have hair

10:27 PM

except the old one who had a beard

10:28 PM

I'm just a generic anime protagonist

You constantly perpetuate the rumor that people will get banned for "speaking up"

@aceat64 so you are saying smurfette has a wig?

Why should we keep discipline an open thing? Why should investigations be open?

smurfette isn't a smurf

10:28 PM

she was made by gargamel to infiltrate them

Man I forgot about that dumb plotline

@aceat64 indeed, your Smurf knowledge is strong, I had forgotten that

lol

10:29 PM

I have a lot of useful and useless knowledge

I think the way this board handled the investigation and discipline was eloquent.

1

I feel it is true. I think this D&O targets people that do not like what they have to say and will use any excuse and all evidence they can find to make sure that they get banned. You see evidence of this in the SoI threads. Dredging up all kinds of past things and throwing it in their faces.

Discipline shouldn’t be an open eye thing. Should be a meeting the way it is.

Draco, do you feel the previous board did that as well?

I do to a smaller extent

smaller, when they did it to cover fraud, love your priorities man

The work place doesn’t bring anyone in for a public flogging. It’s behind closed doors.

3

I don't think what you did, Andrew, as far as releasing the email should be bannable .. I don't agree with you getting banned for that. I think the documents should be avaliable to the membership.

A group our size needs a professional hr process

Well, we went back a few years in membership

Absolutely. @quattroquattro

I think we are at the 2016 range now

Draco, size doesn’t matter. The discipline process should have never been a song, dick, and dance process.

10:33 PM

What benefit is it having it be in front of membership.

@Patrickpleez1 I've never heard that expression, but I like it

This isn’t a fucking Masonic Lodge. It’s a YMCA at best. With tools.

Public courts are public for a reason. Anyone can view most of the documents and judgements in a court with some exceptions. This leads to fairness and the ability to look back into cases and see how things were handled. We are no different.

10:34 PM

I do not think sexual assult cases should be public

10:34 PM

one of the exceptions

BTW @Draco regardless of the current conversation, I think Freddy's behavior towards you is harassing and he should be removed from the discord, honestly.

1

We aren’t a public court. We are a paid membership. A business if you will... So a private HR process is more towards our gearing.

We are a community first and foremost. Committees have Governments .. as I said before it is in the bylaws ... we are more similar to a church/community center with tools than a corporate business

@Toenolla good thing its not your call

10:39 PM

maybe you can go cry in your private channel to all your buds and they will do it

10:43 PM

here comes the kumbaya from dagron

10:44 PM

lets all hum it to our selves and make macaroni pictures

We can have public or private hearings, but either way we have to take a record of names when we decide to ban people.

we already have this...

Private channel? I don't even know how to make one of those.

I think the admins have to make it. Like the Covid channel.

Shrug. If I could say that in some magical private channel, I wouldn't be saying it in the public one.

I think it benefits people that have most board meetings scheduled and open. Now, there may be a need for many of them and that is fine or a need for a few closed ones. But the way things have been going this past year is that the D&O have a working meeting and get together talk about things and come to a consensus and hold a special meeting soon after and vote unanimously. This leaves the membership completely out of the loop. If they streamed the working meetings that would be an improvement or even notes

Mobile app has changed and *blocked means blocked*. Dilemma.

Shit I should update

lol

11:14 PM

you could be rid of me

You constantly perpetuate the rumor that people will get banned for "speaking up"

@pearce That's definitely a false rumor because Draco is still here. (edited)

3

2

Yeah I explained that above ...

I think this D&O targets people that do not like what they have to say and will use any excuse and all evidence they can find to make sure that they get banned.

@Draco They.do.not. Otherwise you would have been banned ages ago. So stop saying that.

4

@Draco why do you have such lust for backing the crimes of the previous BoD, they had lots of secret meetings without minutes

I've said it before and i will say it again .. I am not for crimes or theft ...nor am I for secret meetings with or without minutes

sure sure, just for supporting those that did it

11:51 PM

people-centric

Seem like ya'll are spreading rumors about me now ... I'm not supporting Kris and I don't think the board should bring her back without her asking for a hearing and maybe not even then

It is the BoD's choice to have meeting as long as they waive rights to notice. The membership does not have a say. However what meetings do you see that were "secret" that did DMS business that needed input? Voting to approve expansion bids?

The majority of this boards meetings go against this rule "Board meetings will be posted on the Dallas Makerspace Events calendar."

It's not a rumor, your here praising Her Majesty's Board when they committed real crimes.

I've said it before and i will say it again .. I am not for crimes or theft ...nor am I for secret meetings with or without minutes

@Draco Go spend a few hours with Kris, Steve, Kessinger, and Chuck raking them over the coals for their undocumented meetings. Leave us alone.

I'm not praising them for commiting crimes..

You are holding them to a significantly lower standard of behaviour

4

I don't think I've singled them out actually .. I've just said past boards

11:59 PM

Meaning our normal way of business

11:59 PM

That includes the boards you were on with Robert and Alex

11:59 PM

They didn't have many unscheduled meetings

https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/10/30/circular-conversations

Circular Conversations — Out of the FOG

Definition: Circular Conversations - Arguments which go on almost endlessly, repeating the same patterns with no resolution. Spinning the Wheels in a Rut: A Circular Conversation happens when both parties have opposing positions on an issue, dig in, and reiterate the mer...

I think you may be right .. but I'm not here to convince ya'll

12:01 AM

just share what I think

My motivation to dig into blocking settings is nil this evening

Opinions are like dicks. Not everyone likes what you got.... and no one likes it forced on them.

3

for running on a platform of "Facilitate trust, communication, and respect" the blue tape slate has been surprisingly non-communicative

DO NOT let @pearce know about this...

You know...I was just thinking today, that what DMS needs most are political parties.

with the obvious hypocrisy some people display, it's obvious we've had nameless ones for a while

?

There are some people who constantly whine about activities of the current board, but they never gave a single critique about prior boards (when their friends were on it). Even when the things they whine about now were done by prior boards as well. People like that might as well have a party designation next to their name IMO. They only care about behavior when it's not their friends in power.

1

3

@A. Spencer(jast) that has to have been written by Draco, that is his favorite straw man.

5:54 AM

@Kentamanos I'd prefer a reputation flag to show they are just shit posters. Amongst themselves they don't even really like each other. Their uniting factor is they like the free reign Kris Anderson gave them.

Although I agree, All the posts under "news" say for byline, and feel like, style wise, Joe King

Instead of a green dot they could have a red circle with a slash

7:53 AM

I thought the guy in the peddle car going uphill was particularly funny!

2

With all the actual work the board has to deal with on a daily basis I wish these fuckwads would just fuck off for at least just one day. For fuck sake its a holiday weekend and they are posting "I am butthurt" videos on Youtube and linkedIn

1

Side note- who do I need to contact to get registered to vote?

Open a ticket or send an email to admin@dallasmakerspace.org

2

typo I can fix, but prefer to let OP

I'll fix it ;)

1

Also ... http://votingrights.dallasmakerspace.org/login

2

all the actual work the board has to deal with on a daily basis

@quattroquattro let's really unpack this. Covid19 hits. Government shutdown hits swift. James, Julie, Ken, Brad, and Lara have full time jobs, with employers to answer to, maybe employees/clients to care for, and companies mobilizing their staff to work from home, on top of job loss fears and a whole lot of unknowns. Plus James, Julie, and Ken (I don't know about Brad and Lara) have spouses and children. Those spouses also have employers/employees/clients to keep happy, had to deal with moving work home, and had to worry/plan for job loss. They had to set up and conduct home schooling. They had kids underfoot. Ken's kids were in college, which was a whole other set of problems. Then came online work and school: were there enough devices for every family member? Heaven help you if any had little kids - couldn't just park them in front of a computer to self-learn. And like the rest of us, they had to hunt for groceries etc as inventories disappeared. And dodge the disease. And worry/plan for catching the disease. And oh yeah, those employers to keep happy, those jobs that might get laid off? They provide the health insurance. Now repeat that burden for the officers and committee chairs. DMS requires James, Julie, Ken, Lara, and Brad, plus Pearce, Jim, Doug, JJ, chairs and whoever I'm forgetting to labor for FREE. In the midst of extreme personal burdens, they shut down an industrial facility of varied equipment safely and swiftly, carried on with managing construction projects, figured out ways to deliver value to members at home, contributed DMS resources to emergency PPE efforts in ways that were safe, created a reopening plan, implemented reopening plan, are managing an open industrial facility + enforcing safety standards that some are aggressively opposing, dealt with actual death threats, and the nibbling to death by ducks that is Talk and Discord. We don't deserve them. (edited)

6

7

2

@NobleGoblin be advised it has...unfortunate behaviors which should be accounted for. Talk is full of stuff, the latest, from Kevin, accusing Jim of it being a conspiracy (it's not; there's just not an error catch for people who already have voting rights and try to add anyway) (edited)

@stephenie thanks for that!

@A. Spencer(jast) that's not just Joe's style, it says Joe wrote it on the website. Also @quattroquattro accounts@dallasmakerspace.org for voting rights since that's the ticketing system

9:47 AM

Admin@ is the DnO email inbox

My mistake

that's not just Joe's style, it says Joe wrote it on the website

(edited)

Hah, I'm particularly amused that they simply removed the number from the date for their own meet the candidates/vodka night

3

@stephenie thanks so much! Without your dedicated help we would not have been able to handle some of the greatest challenges to DMS. And you gave me much needed appropriate feedback.

We (I) appreciate you. It is a community and hope that we all can get together soon. (edited)

1

10:42 AM

lukea just raised my opinion of him significantly... https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/luke-andraski-statement-of-intent-bod-2020-withdrawn-july-4th/70261/18?u=jast

3

Indeed

1:59 PM

That makes me happy. I've taken classes from him and really liked him.

2:00 PM

He taught the light painting class and it was informative and fun.

yeah... I'd like to do that one day. Looks really neat, and fun; definitely way cool when people are good at it...

It's cool on several levels, first the camera tech, second the performance art when taking the picture and finally most of the light tools are cool things you can build yourself.

2:16 PM

There was a guy that had a glove covered in tiny LEDs that he made, when you ran it through the pictures it looks like smoke. It was totally cool

3

@A. Spencer(jast) I’ve been passively looking at Talk and keeping up with some of the more talked about drama. @hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium thank you!

In marks latest campaign video he literally says "I don't work all day to go work at the makerspace" what the ever loving shit does he think it means to be on the board?

11:03 AM

And he's still claiming he's the principal founder in spite of the published evidence and eyewitness testimony....

Not sure. At minimum it's gonna be a part time job. I'm of two minds - I would love to help, but also know I'm gonna have a lot of work to do

11:05 AM

And yea, after all this evidence his word doesn't hold a lot of weight with me.

I can honestly say that I have loved my time on the board, the work isn't hard most of the time, and it's meaningful.

11:10 AM

It's hurtful that we get attacked by people like this, it's one thing to engage in direct conversation its completely another to just post hit videos and leak them out to the membership

11:12 AM

I take some consolation in the fact that it appears the membership generally agrees. Their posts get no hearts, their videos have gotten no likes, and even on Mark's personal facebook page there is little meaningful feedback on his trolling

Because he invited all those schmucks to meetings with him at El Fenix. Or so he once said.

I'm a little appalled that Max has an interview video titled "be excellent to each other" but has managed to be a complete ass hole to several women (including myself) and mock their appearance.

I would like another 3D fab chair that's not Max, I sure don't volunteer again

3:00 PM

Have we considered having chair-less committees?

I have though about it but have to be off the Bod first.

I try not to throw stones at chairs when I have no intention of taking over that duty, but from a mostly outsider POV, it really doesn't seem like he does a good job. The 3D scanner thread that went a full year with all sorts of "it'll be ready any moment now" and "if you want to talk about it, come to the committee meeting"

Two $3500 formlabs printers that apparently are dead and not worth repairing

3:04 PM

I know that's membership too, luckily the technology changed enough we can go with dirt cheap printers and have disposable tools like DMS is use to

3:05 PM

I would like to revisit the octopuppet thing I don't have a lot of experience setting that up that needs infrastructure help, but nothing is getting decided on

3:06 PM

But yeah Max has had formal complaints and dumpster fire talk threads. I hate to see 3D fab get abandoned.

Since reopening we have had a number of technical issues logged and a number of requests for training. Max has not responded to any of them.

I never thought I'd see Max forgive Mark either for putting all those pin holes in his cosplay Star Trek uniform. This is in a thread where Mark effectively wants the record of his banning cleaned up:

At a time when the whole world was talking about 3d printing to help doctors and hospitals Max was absent.

3:17 PM

Ha, what a fucking slime ball

it's almost like Mark likes to randomly attach names to his causes to make it seem like more people support him

He uses people's names to borrow credibility for his cause

3:19 PM

Me and Kanye were talking about it yesterday, by adding other people's names to it he makes it sound like it's not just him looking out for him.

4

3:20 PM

Matt Damon agreed with us, Mark's a dick

1

hehe

@themitch22 Laser and 3D Fab both seem more like 'service providers' than committees. I don't know that the solution is to go chair-less but I wouldn't be opposed to changing up their structure vs other committees.

2

in your opinion are they more "service providers" because the usage is more "uniform in nature" and more "fire and forget" than say woodshop?

Right, I'm really not sure if it's a matter of leadership or just the nature of what they do that makes people uninterested in running the committee

just FWIW and from what I've seen, you've done a good job

I had 12, 15, 19+ people active in the Laser committee. It can be done.

3:30 PM

Not throwing stones at Michael!

At the end of the day, all committees provide some sort of service, and require some maintenance team. But yeah, I think there's a definite 'fire and forget' mentality with both.

3:31 PM

It would be interesting to track the count of how many people use committee tools vs how many show up to meetings.

1

3:33 PM

There's definite steps to be taken to improve meeting attendance for laser, that's for sure.

Yeah, I feel like 3D printing and laser can be looked at almost like a "Kinkos" to some people

3:33 PM

I bring my file, I press a button, I pay a fee, I leave

(edited)

3:34 PM

...and feel my wrath if that machine is down because there's not another Kinkos in town

1

the fact is there are not as many vounteers with 3D fab I don't know if it's Max as chair or people just want to print stuff and leave

I always wanted to see 3D fab do like group builds on cool printers. Like a hang printer or a scara machine. It'd be a fun way to get people into the committee area and interested.

3:37 PM

The laser equivalent is... slightly more hazardous

Michael, my leadership was unconventional. I stated up front that I wouldn't become a one person, on call maintainer. I would handle all bureaucracy: schedule meetings, track finances & classes, handle discipline, track maintenance & purchases, and be the voice of Team Laser on talk. The team had to either maintain the machines or not. They were given free reign to enhance the area with pet projects. I flat out said I had no problem with lasers shut down indefinitely. And I fed them on maintenance day

3:41 PM

And I said I'd only chair for one term

3:45 PM

the fact is there are not as many vounteers with 3D fab I don't know if it's Max as chair or people just want to print stuff and leave

@themitch22 Laser users are a captive audience. Have to stay within arms reach. Made it easy to recruit. 3D Fab, don't most users walk away while job runs?

One thing that 3d fab could have that hasn't been leveraged recently is the design aspect of it. It's currently taught as "go download from thingiverse and print" there is very little focus on how to execute an idea with the tools

@michaelb I use to do group projects, the filastruder, mendel90, printerbot simple, etc but that pretty much all died with the volunteer effort

4:13 PM

I did a prusa mk2 group build

@themitch22 I was at the space once during one of your group builds, it looked fun!

the rostock max v3.2 was a group project too but now it's collecting dust, that's why I don't bother doing 3D fab projects or training

4:14 PM

polyprinters just need updated online class and maintenance class

4:15 PM

it's not like we're paying Polyprinter for their service anyway, and it's not like polyprinter supports member damage

4:17 PM

3d fab could be self-sustaining

Quick question- Where did the "Blue Tape" name come from?

Their website- morebluetape.org. I think I prefer the sister-site though: lessbluetape.org

More Blue Tape, Less Red Tape
Vote for Mark Havens, Joe King, Max Kirkland, Kevin Patel

Blue Tape was one of the perks of being at DMS. There was always some around for your projects. It was also one of the first thing that was taken away by this current Board and Officers. The purpose of More Blue Tape is to say, we want to make all our members more comfortable. It is such an inexpensive thing to do, why not? Also those Drink Cups, Tableware and maybe a couch even. And lastly, not yelling or being curmudgeons to members.

But less Red Tape means that we want to reduce the load on our volunteers and automate things as well as give more deciding power back to committees while at the same time building stronger ones through leadership training and other regular training. We need to spread the load as we grow. We cannot rely on just a few people at the top.

Wait are we not allowed to use blue tape? That stuff was useful.

5:43 AM

Even if it was always going missing...

We use to spend around $250 every few months to stock up DMS.

holy hell

5:44 AM

Hard no

Do you think that is alot every 3 months?

5:46 AM

I think it is a good investment in our members.

5:50 AM

And we have been doing it for years.

I do not know enough about DMS finance to make an informed comment, however those rolls are pretty big and it seems like they would last longer.

https://makerspacedata.com/Dallas-Makerspace/

5:55 AM

$84 per month isn't very much at all

5:59 AM

That number was talked about when we had a whole lot more members.

Yeah, considering it's less that $5 on Amazon for a roll that seems like a LOT

6:20 AM

Plus, every dollar saved is more to help with expansion.

6:21 AM

https://www.amazon.com/ScotchBlue-Painters-Multi-Use-70-Inch-2090-18E/dp/B00004Z4BB

6:21 AM

Granted, it's on sale, but I hope that whoever is making purchases would try their best to buy most things like this on sale.

Yes, sales are good. I remember once we did buy some cheap stuff once and regretted it. But I'm all for cost savings ...

This is one place I differ significantly from Draco: he thinks "that doesn't sound like much". I think "Do I want to borrow $34 from a buddy to fund my blue tape fetish?" Because, effecitvely, that's what is happening. EVERY DIME of my monthly payment to DMS is being spent on blue tape, AND they're plundering over half (50/2=25<34) of my buddy's monthly payment to DMS as well, to fund the blue tape fetish. No thanks. I'd like to spend that on tools. Or a building. Or power for those tools. Or other things I can't have at my house. I'll buy my own blue tape.

1

6:45 AM

Ditto for red solo cups, plastic utensils for individuals to use in the galley, etc. etc. etc.

Sure .. I can understand that

6:46 AM

I'm willing to put 6 cents of my membership into bluetape

6:47 AM

Hey James

6:47 AM

Good Morning

Here is a write-up of where more blue tape comes from: https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/what-is-blue-tape-and-why-are-some-candidates-running-as-more-blue-tape/72424

6:49 AM

@NobleGoblin it's the actual rally cry of two people who were actively stealing from the space

It had nothing what-so-ever to do with stealing from the space. Many people complained when it was removed and it was just one of the first things, removed.

@pearce has my undying gratitude for being the shit collector for deciding to tighten those particular belt notches, because I know he took on a TON of crap, but it NEEDED done. Good work, soldier.

5

They think that the DMS should provide consumables for their projects instead of bringing them themselves

2

Perks for members are not a bad thing in moderation.

Yet you seem to have built a platform on it

Well, it really symbolizes much of the feeling from the community we had before this past year- when the place was full of interesting projects and people. I don't miss theft, I miss the people.

I like that we are allowed as members to -donate- consumables

Yup that was cool too

but that's not why I pay membership. I pay membership to keep up with tools, equipment, pay the bills, etc. Not for tape.

1

Donations are allowed as long as they approved by committee chairs

6:59 AM

Well, the space is not just about tools but a community of people. We are Dallas Makerspace... the people. Many have associated us with a gym membership for tools and some are there for that but that isn't how it is for a whole lot of others. We all need community of some form. Dallas Makerspace served as a place of community. Some get it from their church or family but some got it from DMS. Feeling comfortable is important and I think many of the Directors and Officers this year didn't value this enough. They may have fixed the books but they broke the space.

We do need a community- but that is not what I pay membership for. Not everyone at DMS wants to be a part of the community either. Community is voluntary participation.

7:00 AM

And I want to make it very, VERY clear

7:01 AM

When you fix something broken there will always be people hurt.

7:01 AM

The board did not break the space Draco

7:01 AM

The people hurt and upset did. Rather than wait

7:01 AM

let me finish

7:03 AM

Rather than wait and see the results of painful progress, people got upset and loud and political. People who do not like to be told no, people who did not want their creature comforts disturbed, people that were use to getting their way and made the makerspace a personality trait. I have not liked all of the changes. I dislike that we can't be adults enough to even enjoy alcohol. I disliked a lot of the honorarium changes, but I did my best to not resort to a lot of the petty interpersonal bullshit that is currently running rampant.

4

7:04 AM

Progress. Takes. Time. It's a lesson the space and the country as a whole could learn.

2

7:05 AM

Something something The Road to Hell is Paved with Good Intentions something

I can understand that perspective. The way in which the board decided to go about fixing the space was really blind to a large chunk of the membership. We can see that in the dramatic membership decline and the emptying out of the space. This is not really a fix at all.

7:06 AM

I didn't sue the past board

And?

7:06 AM

COVID did a lot to decline membership. Many members quit BECAUSE of people starting drama

I don't think it was blind AT ALL. It made hard decisions that needed made, and got done what needed done.

4

I doubt anyone is on the board with the intent to hurt the space.

You are correct, @NobleGoblin in that we need to find a way to come back together

7:07 AM

compromise

Coming together starts with calling off this political party bullshit.

3

James and Jim have assulted Kevin, Mark and Max

Dissolve the whole "blue tape" "more blue tape" "whatever anyone else is using"

through their SoI threads

I don't know about James but I can speak on Jim

This was before the blue tape

Jim and I did NOT get off on the right foot. Also before blue tape

7:09 AM

However, we took our issues offline and sat down together and worked it out. We let each other speak. We agreed to disagree on things.

Coming together starts with having a decent dialog between parties and a calm one .. not shutting down discussion.

And you know what? We get along now. He can be abrasive at times (like others) and I'm not going to begrudge him of that.

1

7:10 AM

Knowing both Kevin and Jim it will be hard for them to have a calm discussion- but not impossible if they are both open to learning from each other and not dead set on changing each others mind

Perhaps we need professional mediators

1

Which is a huge issue. Most of this back and forth is because people are too set in the "I'm right you're wrong" mentality and refuse to see the grey areas. Or just agree to disagree and move on with life.

Well I will agree with that .. and not understanding the other viewpoint

Professional mediators are an aid. They won't change someone or make them listen.

I know that... and the parties have to come to the table willingly

7:13 AM

But soooo much BS has happened

And?

It is going to be hard to get it to happen

We are adults. Get over it.

1

7:13 AM

Yup.

You know what, Noble ... "Get over it" isn't a good thing to say keep people calm

7:14 AM

Like telling a depressed person .. "Get over it"

1) Wouldn't do that.

7:14 AM

2) I'm speaking generally.

7:14 AM

There is a point where you have to let things go. Holding a grudge will not facilitate change or compromise.

7:15 AM

Letting things go doesn't mean you forgive someone or forget what they did.

Yes but we have to be able to find that point .. right now we cannot even come to the table

Not sure what Draco is claiming about me since I blocked him, but he's I'm glad to answer any question put my way by anyone rational

It means you are choosing to have a clean slate and move forward.

^^ example .. blocking me

Also, my IRL name is Michelle if people prefer that. Idc personally

Everyone calls me Draco IRL .. I really should just get my name changed

Eh. Blocking is petty to some and not to others. Depends on the situation. It's def not something I would ever put any real emotion into.

7:17 AM

Someone blocks me? Ok. I hope they are happy. Moving on.

However, it doesn't help come to the table

Nope. But those people are also not ready to come to the table.

7:18 AM

And arguing with them ain't gonna help.

truth

I blocked Draco because he's generally doing nothing but trolling. If you answer his question he just moved the goal posts. Also I blocked him because when I stopped answering his garbage on talk he went after me on my personal Facebook. Screens are posted somewhere on here that show the lovely argument where I was telling Draco to back off on an attempt to victim shame a member

A good question for the candidates is how they will move forward should they not get elected. Will they stay? Will they retaliate?

7:19 AM

If they are elected- Will they retaliate?

1

7:20 AM

I don't care why anyone blocks anyone else @quattroquattro Not my business and not to be mean, but not worth my time. No one needs to justify why they blocked who to me.

First step, stop name calling .. part of trolling means being disingenuous, He is accusing us of not being truthful in what we believe (edited)

Accusing of being untruthful is not necessarily name calling. And I'm not going down the hold of if what you believe is true or not. Thats not what we are discussing.

7:22 AM

rabbit hole*

He is being dismissive .. that is one of the issues

7:22 AM

Because he doesn't think we are serious

7:22 AM

and thinks we want to some how destroy the space?!

7:23 AM

He mentioned that in a thread on Talk

No one believes that anyone wants to literally destroy the space. It's a figure of speech. They believe that a lot of the changes some of the candidates want to make would end up hurting the space as a whole.

I'm paid up for the full year, I'll be here at least that long. As a person who lost the election it's unlikely that I will have any clout to retaliate, but based on Mark and Dracos behavior I expect to be retaliated against. Luckily this board voted in an antiretaliation policy they would have to remove first. (edited)

7:26 AM

I can't imagine removing antiretaliation policies would sit well with the general membership.

James:

This may in fact be their end game, just do as much damage as they can before trying to do it somewhere else. They have in the past been associated with John Thummel, Kris Anderson and Joe Paden. These banned members, who per a few Facebook posts are planning a space in the Plano area.

It would explain why they are posting on YouTube and LinkedIn, and not to the membership. They may be trying to sink our reputation to aid their own recruiting as the “new, fun all booze all the time makerspace” when people start searching for things to do post covid-19.

Who knows, but I’m surprised they didn’t just stay at ACME since that’s where a few of them went during the covid closure.

^ This channel is called DMS Politics.

I would like to be on better terms with James ... we once were .. at one time he wanted me to be DMS President

1

One sec, let me catch up.

Someone sent me a screenshot of Dracos response to my answer and it's exactly what I was talking about with moving the goal posts. I answered the question and he writes back with something barely related

Eh. I take that with a grain of salt. If they wanted to do real damage they would come to the space. @Lampy (Ken Purcell) what were you replying to?

7:32 AM

And if they want to start a space, ok? Cool? Acme has a lot of the same values IIRC and they have not grown very much.

Dracos post of Jame's quote

We have quite a LOT on our side. Though, I do think we could market better. That's an entirely different conversation though.

1

I wish we didn't have sides

Posted questions for the candidates on Talk. Hopefully there will be responses

7:35 AM

Humans will always be divisive at one point or another. It's not a death sentence. We are all on the same side, just in different ways. We all want the space to succeeed.

1

7:36 AM

succeed*

It has been more work being closed. Trying to manage the space to successfully move on past the Covid-19 shutdown has been brutal on D&O and some members. They have their own personal duties to the friends and family, work etc. yet we get harassed about making decisions.

3

I honestly can't imagine how hard it's been for ya'll.

I say (with alarming frequency) two people can get along just fine; once there's a 3rd, there are sides and disagreements... This is how the first tribes started, by adding a 3rd person to the human race.

Seems odd to be so balled up on an issue about blue tape. It is a consumable item and yet while cheap shows a desire to have it subsidized. I look at it like do you put your grocery cart away or do you leave it between cars? It is an indicator of your level of care when dealing with others. (edited)

3

I used it when it was there but honestly I can't recall ever really needing it

blue tape is remarkably expensive and pretty terrible for nearly all of what it gets used for

3

Blue Tape is a symbol more than anything

1

symbolic of wasteful subsidy

5

Gotta agree with Eric. Ya dont realize how expensive things actually are till your logistics chair/officer. We go through something like its candy and no one donates any to logistics.

it must taste good or something

Were gluttons for punishment (edited)

Raffi's still chair of computer committee, no?

8:34 AM

Oh. I guess not.

I remember @Diplomat would get so mad about people using the blue tape. Now I know why. Shit is expensive

n/m

8:35 AM

what do you mean, @Axeonos ? It's free. Well, it used to be, before the big meanie board took over and forced pearce to take away all our funstuffz!

Can't tell if joking. Too early havent had caffeine yet

1

oh, total snark.

4

I wish we didn't have sides Liar, liar, pants on fire. You wish the space was filled with people who agreed 100% with YOUR views. It’s easy to lament the lack of stuff you view as “cheap” until you add it all up. Me, my “side” is the side of fiduciary responsibility.

8

1

Yes, I liked keeping everyone supplied with Blue Tape. There were large balls of blue tape in the trash on occasion. Meaning someone had over masked something for painting and since it was "free", who cares? I think the one that bothered me most was when someone did work for a plaster cast and used a wide roll off blue tape as part of the cast. Then was unrepentant about it.

bundling large/heavy materials together was my favorite - because masking tape has got the Wheaties for that task

Why not determine a consumable budget and then allocate money to different items as needed, could get blue and regular masking tape, drill bits, assortment of nuts and bolts, etc

9:28 AM

Should be more options than none or unlimited supply for people to waste

3

I think the most compelling argument for stocking consumables so far is that our most profitable members are people who pay dues and show up one or two weekends a month to knock out a quick project, and we'd be able to keep more of them around if they didn't have to run to home depot to buy bolts or remember to pack their sharpies. At the end of the day, I'm here often enough to know what I need to bring so while it can be a minor inconvenience if I'm rushing from work it's hardly a major issue.

A $10 roll of blue painters tape lasts me a long time. Maybe we should get sponsored by 3M

12:14 PM

"Most creative waste of blue tape scholarship fund"

1

I sort of agree with Michael a bit. I have been up there working on something and belated realized i needed something and instead of leaving for 30-60 mins to get it. It is nice to be able to have something there. I have definitely used a red cup once for a project, some pepper for some other one and occasionally some of the blue tape. However i am not sure how to police usage. I don't think a little here or there is a big deal. But if someone is using a whole roll worth of tape themselves, they should really bring their own. Maybe having that stuff right by a way to pay for it. So it's there and the space gets reimbursed for usage

Things I have personally witnessed with space provided blue tape. 1. New roles being used to prop up a resin piece, ruining about 4 roles 2. Using blue tape to make molds, like what was mentioned above 3. Grabbing a new role of blue tape instead of one of the many already available. 4. Excessive use by specific members who are running a business and not contributing back to the space from their profits. 5. Taking blue tape home The bottom line is it will not be possible to stock until we can get a consumables wall set up that allows members to buy it on site. We just don't have the man power to police it.

The consumables wall with a square kiosk in the galley was proposed (and why those shelves are along the wall to the common room) but I guess no one ever cared to run it.

1

Yeah Brandon built the shelves specifically for that purpose

I would love if someone could lead on getting that project back on track.

Can we bring back the Supply vending machine

Question isn't is there waste with shared resources, there always will be, question is how much, is investing a few hundred dollars a month in shared consumables a benefit to a large enough number of members?

1

The fastenal lockers at most industrial places solve this issue much to the employees dismay

We really need to see a proposal at this point if it's gonna get restarted. Or the next board does I suppose. I don't understand what is so damn hard about going to Home Depot. There's one less than 10 minutes away.

1

Supplying no consumable or hand tools (everything is consumable eventually) would certainly make it easier to run things at DMS. Personally I bring my own hand tools because I cant rely on DMS to be stocked with anything

People there after home depot hours that need supplies. Ive gone to Walmart for tools and projects a bunch since joining the space its entirely a convenience

1:05 PM

I have my own dremel because the dremels at dms have been broken at some point

also brings up what should goals of DMS be, DMS is making a ton of money, should it just keep pilling up until DMS starts buying 100k pieces of equipment that almost no members will use?

DMS is attempting to complete an expansion. We spent in the neighborhood of 150k on it in June alone. I don't think we are hurting for uses of our money. Because we've been careful, we're also not in danger. (edited)

1

Looking at the Fastenal page, the program has changed heavily since the last quote I have from them. This includes lockers for tool control that are in the same system as the vending (i.e. top rows could be vending for consumables, bottom cabinets for expensive checkout based tools). Can't hurt to inquire; even if it's not blue tape, could be useful for common committee consumables that are normally under their stipends / usual committee budgets (WD-40/cutting oil , pig mats, and the like for machine shop; recharge canisters for jewelry; blades for all committees with saws; sanding belts and flap disks for metal shop). It could be setup so any committee member / volunteers could pull a replacement, but not average members. Now may not be the time to get such a system, but the time to plan for options to deploy once expansion is done since I expect planning such a transition would take a while given it's back-burner nature

3

Hard to do an experiment with covid impact, would be interesting if it was possible to try no consumables / hand tools / resources (only tables and large tools you can't carry around) to see how that impacts member retention (which determines long term income)

I think it's pretty safe to say that less tools wouldn't improve member retention

No hand tools would be a deal killer. Lugging in consumables and project materials is one thing, but having to add in more toolbags is going to push most of it beyond value for a number of members

2:17 PM

And drive up complaints about members abusing other members' tools since, inherently, it will be mistaken for a DMS tool. It's already bad enough when someone insists on bringing their own power tools of the same models we have and we have to sort them (luckily I engraved most of the tools in auto; the bigger issue is the batteries that we don't like to push a rotary tool into a potentially combustible pile of lithium)

After I joined DMS I really understood my dad's advice - Always use your own tools for anything that measures or cuts (precisely). I know my knife/chisel/hand saw/router bits are sharp, and I know my tape measure hasn't been used to fish wiring. (edited)

Former manager of mine in a different career had an 11" steel rule that used to be 12". Of course it wasn't the 11"-12" end that had been cut down - it was the 0"-1" side. Claimed he kept it so that noone would steal it, but he made nearly as many off-by-1 errors with that f_cking thing as everyone else who borrowed it. (edited)

UNKLE - always cheery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMChIaIH120

Dragutin Stević

UNKLE - Eye For An Eye

The false balance argument is tiring

1

Indeed it is.

@NobleGoblin it looks like all the responsible candidates have answered your question.

1

5:55 PM

No word from the blue tape crew

want me to close it?

6:02 PM

(kidding, we need to let them come in if they want... I'm just not holding my breath)

Is anyone commenting on their videos/facebook? Are they listening to BoTh sIdEs?

"A fork is a copy of a repository. Forking a repository allows you to freely experiment with changes without affecting the original project." "Most commonly, forks are used to either propose changes to someone else's project or to use someone else's project as a starting point for your own idea." - Official Documentation of GitHub Forking isn't plagiarizing. You should be very careful when making serious accusations like that. https://docs.github.com/en/github/getting-started-with-github/fork-a-repo

Fork a repo - GitHub Docs

A fork is a copy of a repository. Forking a repository allows you to freely experiment with changes without affecting the original project.

1

6:35 PM

An argument about that wouldn't be productive for anyone involved. Bye.

forking doesn't erase commit history. and it certainly doesn't insert the cloner's name at the top of the license file.

Sorry I'm github illiterate... what does this have to do with dms politics?

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/mark-havens-care-to-comment/72420/34

Mark Havens, care to comment?

It’s weird that Mark would care so much about copyright now, he certainly doesn’t seem to care for it with his GitHub. Many of his repositories are straight up copies from other projects with the name changed. Note that these aren’t forks, but totally new git repos with none o...

1

Mark likes to "fork" GitHub works and add his name to them

It adds to the evidence that he has repeatedly take credit for others work. Here at DMS it's "principal founder" in the business world it's apparently claiming he wrote stuff he didn't

1

That's not actually what he does, he copy/pastes and reuploads them with his name on them

2

The funny thing is github makes it dead simple to do it the "right" way, there's a giant fork button. You actually have to understand a tiny bit of git to plagiarize.

@DJ Vance they aren't forks, maybe spend 30 seconds following the links

6:54 PM

$ curl -s https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lukechilds/dockerpi/4bb1b91e1d241a931f63511423fd216733179387/Dockerfile > lukechilds-Dockerfile
$ curl -s https://raw.githubusercontent.com/mrhavens/pidoc/42a33d64a3c7c12e2df97b944105bc2292ea9565/Dockerfile > mrhavens-Dockerfile
$ diff lukechilds-Dockerfile mrhavens-Dockerfile
40c40
< LABEL maintainer="Luke Childs <lukechilds123@gmail.com>"
---
> LABEL maintainer="Mark Havens <mark.r.havens@gmail.com>"

6:55 PM

here's an example, Mark took a file/project from someone else, created a new repo with no ties to the original repo or author, but he changed the name to make it seem like he wrote it

6:55 PM

the correct way to do this with open source is to fork the repo, maintaining a shared commit history with the original repo

6:56 PM

Mark's rebranded projects, even if they had useful original code, can't easily incorporate that code back into the "upstream" repo

He did give you full credit, didn't he?

6:56 PM

In his repo

Draco, look at the other repos, stop derailing

6:57 PM

he built a whole GitHub profile based on other people's work, rebranded as his own

6:57 PM

Mark's Repo: https://github.com/mrhavens/openmaint_docker
Source Repo: https://github.com/itmicus/cmdbuild_docker/tree/master/3.1.1
docker-compose.yml differs slightly, all other files identical

Mark's Repo: https://github.com/mrhavens/pidoc
Source Repo: https://github.com/lukechilds/dockerpi
Obfuscated rip of Luke Child's dockerpi, actually left some of the license files unchanged lol
https://github.com/mrhavens/pidoc/commit/895b771c7868e1dc6dddb57f185442b59d48769f#diff-3254677a7917c6c01f55212f86c57fbf

Mark's Repo: https://github.com/mrhavens/Dedockify
Source Repo: https://github.com/LanikSJ/dfimage
Obfuscated rip, "graciously" includes LanikSJ in the license file though.

Mark's Repo: https://github.com/mrhavens/GANaffect
Source Repo: https://github.com/donydchen/ganimation_replicate

Mark's Repo: https://github.com/mrhavens/DockerTrap
Possibly the only semi-original repo in the entire account.

Mark's Repo: https://github.com/mrhavens/DockerBYOB
An actual fork!

Adding (c) your name when you haven't made a substantive contribution is not kosher, even if it's open source code.

1

his trolling with the PPE building is why I went looking into his github profile

6:58 PM

what Mark has done with his GitHub is a pretty blatant slap in the face to open source development

"A very special thank you goes out to aceat64 [Andrew LeCody] for volunteering to manage this initiative. The source branch for this project can be found here [link to your repo]."

Draco, you're broken

1

@aceat64 You can't fight the law office of Draco, Raffi and Havens with evidence! If you are going to step into their court you need baseless accusations, moving goal posts and gaslights

please learn to read the conversation that is happening here, not the one in your head

@Draco none of the links Andrew provided are to his own GitHub

And community. Because what are rules when there is community?

7:00 PM

@aceat64 you mean a broken record

3

The funny thing is github makes it dead simple to do it the "right" way, there's a giant fork button. You actually have to understand a tiny bit of git to plagiarize.

@Deleted User this is a really important point ^

7:01 PM

Mark went out of his way to do this

7:03 PM

it should be noted that open source is a huge part of DMS core values and our history

4

7:08 PM

@DJ Vance you seem to know how forks work, why are you defending Mark's plagiarism? (https://github.com/RaffiRincon/guides)

How anyone defends him or that group is just beyond all reason. Either you're brainwashed or you're just as much of a dishonest manipulative person. If it's the first, do yourself (and us all) a favor find your way out of the fog.

guess that was the drive-by for the day of the blue tape crew, back to their private chat to figure out the next thing they think will fool people (edited)

Draco's out on talk pretending he didn't know people were living behind the space...

3

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors_Meeting_20190311_Special_Meeting

Board of Directors Meeting 20190311 Special Meeting

7:18 PM

Announcements 1. Notice of Violation from City of Carrollton sent to DMS dated 4-6-2019 giving 10 days notice from mailing (4-6-19) to have all vehicles with people living residing in them to cease. Individuals have been notified. Notice to DMS will be posted.

Were they time-travellers? How can they have a citation from April but discuss it a month earlier in March?

minutes were not a high priority for that board

you need baseless accusations, moving goal posts and gaslights

9:18 PM

All I got is gas.

@judy Kriehn you and me both.

I feel compelled to say “I fart in your general direction!”

7

I was hoping the other side would comment as well. I will admit, not a fan of some of the replies, but overall It's nice to know that the majority of people thus far as willing to do all they can to support DMS.

1

It's amazing how Draco is out here and on talk campaigning for them on "community" but they won't participate in any conversation available to the community and the videos that are posted all have comments turned off.

and the videos that are posted all have comments turned off.

color me astounded

I almost commented on that

Well, bearing in mind Draco, according to him & Cairenn, are the only people they know in this alleged comminity who come to Talk or Discord to interact with "not our community but still DMS members who happen to be at the space sometimes but don't 'hang out' or 'nap' there enough to understand how important our community is"

Draco said "talk isn't a good place to have the conversation" ( paraphrased from memory) But had the comments turned off on the videos off of talk

Bless Cairenn's heart, but I generally ignore most of what she posts.

1

@NobleGoblin when you say not a fan of some of the replies I assume you mean that many of us won't work as the minority on a board of blue tape. All I can offer there is an explanation. This job is incredibly demanding, and even though we have insurance for the D&O you still assume some risk, both legally and professionally when you take this position. Given their refusal to engage in open and honest dialogue so far I see no reason to believe that serving on the board under them would be anything but a mental beating and a whole pile of legal risk.

@NobleGoblin I am a fan of the replies. People can and should set and enforce personal boundaries.

2

I love the honesty. That is more telling than anything

8:26 AM

So while I don't -like- that some people are not willing (which is their choice.) I value more that they are open about it

1

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/wanted-secretary/72623

Bullshit arguments are bullshit regardless of who they're aimed at. I really hate this strawman bullshit that I'm defending people. I'm not defending anyone. I have this weird urge to point out bullshit arguments where I see them. For example, in the anonymous video on YouTube, there was talk of jumping through hoops to teach a class. That's just false. It's super easy to throw up a class on the calendar. Also, in my video, Mark talked about how incumbents shouldn't go after other people running. I should ve mentioned it in the video, but I think that's bullshit. Of course they should go after their competition. It's how they do so that matters. Making wild accusations about some Crisco with an unknown amount of infused marijuana being worth 10 grand for example, is bullshit. Andrew, you don't believe the shit you spew. You lied here on Discord. You denied claiming Tha the oil was worth 10 grand. It takes a certain amount of contempt for people's ability to reason to knowingly lie to them to further your agenda. I suspect that you think the end of promoting the clique justifies the means of bullshit like the plagiarism and 10-grand Crisco claim.

Raffi, I appreciate some of what you said here. It's unfortunate that you didn't correct mark in the video. You are right it's fair to go after them for legitimate things. Like how he misrepresented members in the past in a matter of fraud and has apparently done it again with Luke. I do take issue with you on the weed/hash oil price question though. As I recall we looked at current Colorado market price for both hash oil and infused butters and it came out to an exceptionally high value. Keep in mind that's retail price in a town where it's legal, here where it is illegal it's more expensive. So my position on that is that it doesn't matter if it's 2k, 5k, or 10k. He was in possession of a large quantity of illegal product and he's not being 100% honest about how it happened.

Man l love revisiting the same ole subjects again. It's kinda like oldies radio at this point.

2

Raffi, what's your position on what Mark, Kevin, Joe and Max did to Luke by adding him to their campaign without his knowledge?

Looks like he's already offline

Hit and run

righteousness does not suffer challenges

speaking of hit and run

https://lessbluetape.org/

lessblue-host

Home

2

1

*comedy re-syndication plugin: active*

Damn whois data is useless nowadays. Y'all are no fun

Lol

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/more-blue-tape-crew-trolling-of-dms/72473/90

Blue tears group doesn’t represent how believe effective leadership to manifest itself.

note that Raffi completed ignored the actual conversation, which was the GitHub repos

1

@aceat64 but you're wrong and keep insisting on being wrong despite your inherent and incorrigible wrongness being pointed out. so stop being wrong.

1

Stop cherry picking your arguments based on facts!

so-called reasonable suppositions are not at all reasonable

Marks latest video claims we are trying to silence him. He is not silenced or blocked on talk in any way shape or form.

6:48 PM

It's all about communication but he doesn't let anyone comment on his bullshit videos

Ah, so he's not answering the obvious questions because you guys censored him. Got it...

... how? @quattroquattro ... do you control youtube now?

I hacked the interwebs and made him turn off comments on his own videos. I'm leet like that

7:00 PM

This is me with my covid haircut

3

YOU HAVE HACKED TOO MUCH TIME

2

https://youtu.be/sdEog_1neJ8

Mark Havens

What? They Mean! (Andrew fails to discredit his former friend and m...

hey mark

9:00 PM

who are you to talk about low quality arguments....

9:00 PM

you can't even be responsible enough to answer basic questions...

9:01 PM

and you want to run for the board?

9:01 PM

you wanna "restore dms"? start with basic honesty

Jesus Christ he's trying to get peoples addresses again.

he's welcome to send a written request

9:09 PM

i don't see him doing that though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1MOFnN_jI0

Mark Havens

What? They Mean! (Why won't he play by my rules!?)

oh get out of here

9:12 PM

nobody cares

Mark...are you okay dude?

one could wonder

9:14 PM

lol too busy to talk about dms hahahahaha

9:14 PM

the appearance is much worse than any used car salesman

My favorite quote from his videos is "who works all day and then comes to DMS just to work?"

9:16 PM

All the volunteers...

9:16 PM

People that actually care

1

That's literally what I did for 5 years while I was President

9:22 PM

I even worked for DMS on the weekends, occasionally on my lunch breaks too

All of the volunteers do. It's a labor of love

1

I would honestly be worried if those in power who ran the space didn't see it as work. Seems like little would be put into doing anything required.

2

9:28 PM

I spent two Sundays a month for a year working logistics with storage which would easily be the entire afternoon. Seems like work to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGyWaKzuVkY

Mark Havens

What? They Mean! (Did we put words in his mouth and hoped nobody wo...

Can we block him?

9:30 PM

there blocked

9:30 PM

not server wide

How mature, just keep reposting

why does he keep reposting the same link?

@Roomatologist look again those are all different videos about different talk posts O_O

oh, they're different

Oh God

I just looked at the thumbnails lol

That's a big nope

9:33 PM

Yeah same lol

just think how many views he'd get if he just did tutorial videos, or something productive and not personal vendetta.

2

it's just a kinda weird stalker vibe

1

2

I feel bad for his wife/girlfriend

And he wants the list of all the voting members info

hi, here's some creepy videos can I get everyone's mailing address?

Wasn't Walter trying to do that too

guess I'll change mine to my PO Box again

this is looking like harassment

Seems like it'd be better to just finally throw out the bad apple

Maybe he's trying to start the DMS physical mailing list we joked about

lol mark blaming james for culture HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Not that I'm a member anymore, but I would assume any info I needed could be found on talk or discord. I would not appreciate my info being handed out to members.

@merissa considering the previous ban, there's more of a case for it, but it would have to be a clear violation of the anti-harassment policy

9:41 PM

Maybe this is the plan; bad attention is still attention

Typical troll behavior

"Take care", lol, love you

Mark won't respond here because he knows he can't answer the questions people actually have. He wants to attack my ego and anger, or as other people call it, standing up to him and questioning his lies.

3

10:12 PM

He knows nothing about how DMS actually runs, he just throws stones. One thing he doesn't know for sure is our Anti-Harassment policy.

3

The next board will have plenty of opportunity

for the record

10:39 PM

Pearce banned a nazi once, guess his account got deleted

fascist account got deleted? I did nazi that coming.

3

5

2

great, the puns are spreading

it's a pundemic

I can't roll my eyes hard enough

2

But if you hover over your typing, your whole head spins.

1

Mark seems kind of obsessed with Andrew. In a really unhealthy way IMO. (edited)

8

If I was setting up a new makerspace, I would want the mailing list of my competitor's most active members.

3

what I don't get is why they don't just follow the established process, why make a post on the forums when the process is to contact the secretary

FUD

12:24 AM

I think it causes blowback on them in a big way though

I could see posting about it if they tried and never got a response or something

they want to make it seem like there's some sort of fraud going on and they have to get to the truth of it just by even asking for that stuff

that's what I did when the previous board didn't respond to my request for financial info, as part of the finance team

12:25 AM

of course their response was to ban me to try and hide the theft Kris engaged in, but that's a different story

12:26 AM

the previous board was real awful, I wonder if that's why the decline in membership sign-ups started under that board think

holy

. Finished the video where Mark goes after James. Script reads like straight out of this page: https://outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/10/30/belittling-condescending-and-patronizing

Belittling, Condescending and Patronizing — Out of the FOG

Definition: Belittling, Condescending and Patronizing - This kind of speech is a passive-aggressive approach to giving someone a verbal put-down while maintaining a facade of reasonableness or friendliness. Masked Nastiness Many people with Personality Disorders suffer f...

3

the one where he talks about James' ego issues? hehe

"By masking their purpose in this way, the perpetrator often hopes to deliver the attack while minimizing the risk of retaliation or being held accountable for their behavior." No more obvious or effective way to minimize risk of retaliation or being held accountable than to belittle via a YouTube video and lock the comments.

12:48 AM

Then post-and-run on a forum.

✅ fake friendliness ✅ advice ✅ words of “wisdom”

3

Posting personal attacks against a member that isn't even a candidate is beyond the pale. His attack on Andrew is based on the fact that Andrew has asked him to answer for actions he can't account for.

"Sometimes I steal open source projects and pass it off as my own "Adult" work" - Mark Havens

the one where he talks about James' ego issues? hehe

@Kentamanos yeah, that was amazing to watch him deliver with a straight face

5

@mark.randall: How are your videos not violations of the DMS Anti-Harassment policy?

As I have not seen these videos, nor do I intend to spend that kind of time, I can't have an opinion on their content. Thank you @jswilson64 for bringing it up, I'm appealing to the larger moderator body to help decide if that content should be moderated off of Talk. (edited)

1

FWIW I have reported each video to YouTube as bullying.

@jswilson64 I assume the 3 videos Mark did the hit and run with last night? hehe

yes. If I had the energy to go on Facebook I'd report them there as well

jast thankfully they're much shorter (2-5 mins) than his "interview" videos. Good idea on reporting them jswilson

friendly reminder: we all have the power of the flag, and the power to walk away after throwing a flag on a play...

10:35 AM

(on Talk)

6

note that Raffi completed ignored the actual conversation, which was the GitHub repos

@aceat64 I've looked at the GitHub repos and see no evidence that Mark claims to have written code that he didn't write. In fact there is evidence of him giving credit to the people who wrote the code. I don't think that's compatible with the idea that I've ignored it. What do you think a maintainer is?

10:58 PM

"So my position on that is that it doesn't matter if it's 2k, 5k, or 10k. He was in possession of a large quantity of illegal product and he's not being 100% honest about how it happened." @quattroquattro You're claiming he's not being honest, and yet I don't see any evidence of that in your message. What specifically did he lie about? Are you referring to the joke he made about brownies?

Raffi, you can't possibly be serious

Apparently reacting to posts when you're silenced, when you were told that you weren't allowed to make posts is "abusing a software bug to post emotes" Got this email a while ago: "You have been suspended from the forum until April 27, 2020, 5:00am. Violation of Silencing Violating silence by abusing a software bug to post emotes."

11:04 PM

11:10 PM

hi, here's some creepy videos can I get everyone's mailing address?

@aceat64 Are you aware of any candidates having access to members' email addresses? If so, which ones?

I'm not, I haven't received any campaign emails either

11:10 PM

@DJ Vance have you actually looked at the repos?

11:11 PM

https://github.com/mrhavens/GANaffect/commits/master

mrhavens/GANaffect

Contribute to mrhavens/GANaffect development by creating an account on GitHub.

11:11 PM

every single commit there is an update to the README or the license to add his name to it

I received a campaign email from Mr Jimmy i think

there's not a single bit of original code

I received a campaign email from Mr Jimmy i think

@ferricyanide Hmm interesting

11:12 PM

https://github.com/mrhavens/GANaffect/commit/cf498a71a57110062caf3119d40d245b04828bbe

udpated attribuation · mrhavens/GANaffect@cf498a7

11:12 PM

Now, I will concede that it's not spelled "attribuation"

right, he makes it look like it's a fork, but it's just a rebranding with token attribution

"- Thank goes to albertpumarola for the original research in his 2018 and 2019 papers, and a very special thanks to him for making his open-source GANimation implementation being made avaliable to the affective computing community.

Thanks goes to donydchen for his MIT licensed rewrite of GANimation found here."

why have the repo at all if there's no original code and the only change is the name

11:13 PM

why have a clean commit history, making it harder to do a PR to the upstream repo?

It's rather long i don't feel like posting. I had just assumed he had sent them to everyone

I didn't get one

11:13 PM

I checked my DMS email too

11:14 PM

why have a clean commit history, making it harder to do a PR to the upstream repo?

@aceat64 I don't think his intent was to make upstream PRs

I agree

11:15 PM

I think it was to make him look like a devops guys, hence he made all these repos around the same time as he started branding himself as a devops guy

id rather have dms give out my email, not my physical address if they are forced to when a request is made

2

I guess it is possible Mark just doesn't understand git, github and forks

Doesn't the privacy policy say the opposite?

but for someone who has been doing devops since 2006, that would be weird

11:16 PM

note that devops as a term was coined in 2009 though

"In compliance with law and our bylaws, DMS will provide Member's names and physical adress only, in response to a valid request for member information."

11:17 PM

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Rules_and_Policies#Privacy_Policy

Rules and Policies

I heard he was a principal founder of devops, so it makes sense that he was doing it before it was cool.

1

That's right ladies and gents, the night time is the right time and Raffi's here bringing you those golden oldies about plagiarism and some newer nonsense by Draco! Only on 96.3- DMS politics.

3

If I wanted to make money off of something, I wouldn't put it on GitHub for anyone to download and run easily

11:20 PM

That's right ladies and gents, the night time is the right time and Raffi's here bringing you those golden oldies about plagiarism and some newer nonsense by Draco! Only on 96.3- DMS politics.

@Brsims non-content post

1

holy crap raffi, are you serious?

11:21 PM

if you want people to think you are a devops engineer but have never done devops or worked with opensource, what would you do if you didn't care about being honest? you make a bunch of fake repos

11:23 PM

most people won't look beyond the basics, and if there's no fork indicator, it looks original

11:23 PM

sure, bury the legal attribution down somewhere, just in case the owner of the copyright notices

11:23 PM

gotta cya

I think the thing with the voting member address thing was that it's a texas non profit thing, not really a DMS thing?

11:25 PM

I would much prefer an email address as well if given the choice.

Yea, it's unfortunately listed in a way that forces name and mailing addresses

I really am coming up blank here. I see laws regarding for profit corporations to release shareholder contact information to other shareholders. But afaik a nonprofit doesn't have owners/shareholders.

I think Erik was spot-on with his reply on Talk... the business codes just haven't kept up with modern needs

11:33 PM

I can grab the section if you want. It's in my history somewhere

11:34 PM

Yep, just "The address of each voting member"

I'm curious if you find it. I see Erik's point regarding for profit corporations, but the non-profit just doesn't have owners or shareholders for those laws to apply to.

https://statutes.capitol.texas.gov/Docs/BO/htm/BO.22.htm#22.158

11:35 PM

That whole page is chapter 22, for nonprofits. It's riveting.

11:36 PM

Decided I should probably read up on what's different from Ohio. I think the voting member list was a bit different, but it's been a while.

Ah, for some reason I was looking for shareholder/owner, which as I quickly found is not a thing lol

11:40 PM

I agree with I think everyone else though, while they call out address, if everyone is fine with email address, it makes life easier.

@DJ Vance any idea what the purpose of this repo is? https://github.com/mrhavens/openmaint_docker

12:32 AM

https://github.com/itmicus/cmdbuild_docker/blob/master/3.1.1/docker-compose.yml https://github.com/mrhavens/openmaint_docker/blob/master/docker-compose.yml changed cmdbuild to openmaint, changed a port, and flipped the app and db service definitions

12:33 AM

https://github.com/itmicus/cmdbuild_docker/tree/master/3.1.1/cmdbuild https://github.com/mrhavens/openmaint_docker/tree/master/openmaint again just changed cmdbuild to openmaint, and changed the maintainer info

I gotta say, at least I've learned some stuff about GitHub this election cycle.

2

maybe I should do a class

3

step 1: don't use a GUI and force yourself to use CLI on it so you're not being abstracted from what is going on...hehe

I make the junior devs on my team squash their commits themselves, instead of relying on gitlab to do it

12:52 AM

because rebase is a great tool once you understand it

One of my guys check out every single branch to a different directory, and it drives me nuts. As bad as he is at creating chaos though, I don't say much about it.

wtf why lol

My main problem is people who use stuff like Source Tree and weird crap doesn't work etc., and it's because Source Tree tried to do you a favor on your behalf, hiding whatever the real problem was

12:54 AM

We had a lot of fun with that type of thing when we did our first project with submodules

12:56 AM

Web UI guys wanted to do the whole "mono repo" thing, and our architect hated that idea, so I kinda "split the difference" and had them try out submodules. There's so much old FUD out there about submodules, it was scary at first...hehe

probably hold overs from SVN

it was good for its time compared to things before it...hehe

12:58 AM

When I got out of college, we were using Source Safe, and that was a complete POS

SVN was way way way better than CVS for sure

12:59 AM

that's about as far back as my experience goes

12:59 AM

cvs -> svn -> git

12:59 AM

never really played with bzr or any of the other stuff

just a little mercurial here, which was so much cleaner than git in the beginning

1:01 AM

realizing the channel this is...first time it's gone so far off topic I think...hehe

lol fair

You should do some wiki classes.

Again

1:12 AM

I thought the last one was recorded

1:13 AM

If I ever get some time I could do it

1:13 AM

Busy busy busy :/

When I worked at ARCO they used StarTeam (hated it). The Web guys would check in 400+Mb Photoshop files.

as in a 400MB .psd file? a couple decades ago?

yea, it was at least a decade ago

1

4:40 PM

got mine in the mail today, very well put together

They are awesome

this is probably the nicest looking voting setup we've had

5

@judy Kriehn did it

3

seriously amazing job

2

I claim pretty much no credit for the mailing

so THAT'S why so good...

4

4:43 PM

ROFL

4:44 PM

seriously, "ya'll" did a great job!

Judy does great stuff. She even made some signs for laser scrap... that I promptly never hung...

and here I thought the puns were the worst thing on this discord, but "ya'll" instead of "y'all" beats it

4:47 PM

before I get told my argument is weaksauce again, here's some evidence to support my position on this most important of topics: https://writingexplained.org/yall-or-ya-ll-difference

admin

Y’all or Ya’ll: What’s the Difference? - Writing Explained

STOP! Don't make this mistake ever again. Learn the proper uses and spelling of ya'll and y'all with example sentences at Writing Explained.

1

I mean y'all is just clearly correct

without bothering to read that, I'll confess being a novice with that word; it's generally to be avoided on my part, and usually I do a fine job. I should have stuck to my more usual improper words for singular collectives (or is that collective singulars...damnit!) or, the more proper, not collecting singulars into a phrase. All parties involved in that mailer deserve a pat on the back.

lol

a unique 2nd person plural is a handy tool in the toolbox IMO, even if it takes an officially unrecognized contraction

ah. There's my problem. I was contracting "ya all". So I guess the word I used has a different etymology...a desert/dessert/desert situation, don'chaknow Itellyawhat.

The language is dead, long live the language!

Love Mark using green screen backdrop of the DMS Galley girl his latest YouTube vid

3

man 1hr 8 minutes of nothing

11:38 PM

that takes talent

...the galley? What a weird choice.

bringing back that community?

was there a community that particularly stayed in the galley?

Common room yes

The problem mark is creating here is that his trash talking videos now show as page 1 results when you search Dallas makerspace on youtube. He's damaging the organization with his mischaracterization of dms, it's volunteers and it's members.

Meh. To be persuaded, someone would have to watch the videos, and I honestly don't think they're very compelling. I just hope he stops after the election.

Most people only read the headline. All the need to see is a few negative titles in a row and they will begin to doubt the quality of the organization. He doesn't need to convince them anything, just place doubt in their mind to discourage coming for a visit.

Pretty sure the last board badgered Brandon till he took down videos of board meetings he recorded because they had DMS in the title

Do people really go to YouTube to find info about DMS???

I didn't, but it's plausible that someone would go to YouTube to look up a tour of the makerspace before coming out. Especially now that we aren't doing tour nights.

9:36 AM

It seems trivial for someone to out rank us in search results, simply because we don't post much content ourselves. I'm not super worried about potential members who judge us from his videos, personally.

9:38 AM

FWIW, I get 3 or 4 tours of DMS before even one of marks videos, depending on if I'm incognito or not.

9:38 AM

Actually, only one of his videos shows and it's 'DMS Case Study' so not a negative title even. (edited)

Yep, same. Tours are first. Which is good.

How-to videos on YouTube generate more daily views that all of hollywood. Since our perspective members are how-to people there is always a chance they are seeing it.

https://www.thinkwithgoogle.com/data/youtube-learning-statistics/

YouTube learning statistics - Think with Google

86% of U.S. viewers say they often use YouTube to learn new things. Discover more YouTube data on Think with Google.

Hypothetically, sure but practically, I don't think it'll cost us members. If we're spending energy to be upset at something, I think there are much more immediate issues to focus on, that will likely gain more members than his videos will cost us.

2

1

10:02 AM

And if it turns out to be a bigger issue, well, he has 22 subscribers and <300 views on those videos. We can film some stuff for the DMS channel and just flood him out of the search results.

3

In a sense you are right, youtube is under performing for us right now because we don't produce any content. If we did we could easily be knocking it out of the park both in membership and ad revenue for us. But due to a lack of digital content being produced we are not even a factor there.

10:07 AM

We have a very talented digital producer who is interested in making stuff, he made the ceramics raku video. And we have that great proposal from @Hardsuit for a video cart. So I think with some actual leadership in digital media we could produce great stuff that would be a value to the organization

2

A video cart would be amazing. I have all my streaming stuff at home attached to a sawhorse so I can move it around the house.

@Toenolla if you have some ideas like that for a mobile cart let us know. The cart part is what we haven't figured out yet

Let me show you what I've got set up

10:46 AM

10:47 AM

Main overhead camera is on a huge mic arm, got a ring light attached up there as well

10:48 AM

Nice work!

All the equipment is clamped to the sawhorse instead of the table

10:48 AM

10:49 AM

Added these to store cables

10:49 AM

Having it on a separate base from the table keeps the extendable arm from shaking

10:50 AM

next I have to add a shelf for the desktop computer I stream from

Very cool. Definitely an idea I wouldn't have had

My partner was a tutor so we've been working on this kind of stuff for a while

That sort of setup would work great inside DMS because it can move to any part of the building easily

10:51 AM

And is obviously durable enough for our hard usage

Yeah. Lights still have to be separate though

10:52 AM

Yeah, my space isn't that big

10:54 AM

Obviously if you're working at more than table height you'll need to make adjustments. And I have a tripod for my second "face" camera

10:57 AM

I also modded a dremel bench clamp into a great lil' closeup tripod. Hold on I'll find a photo.

11:01 AM

I feel like you've thought about this and spent a little time on it?

Yeah mostly because of Ed's tutoring

11:04 AM

I want to craft stream but I'm having some trouble with engaging the chat and also with OBS

we have a brown bag at work for people to show "non-work related projects" etc. Trying to show some electronics stuff over Zoom with only a laptop camera was a huge wakeup call for me. I need to spend some time for sure. I did end up learning about OBS and attaching my "inspection scope" up to it etc.

nice

11:06 AM

I do wish I had a real sound board; trying to mix audio in the computer is a mistake

trying to show a breadboard, power supply and oscilloscope with just a laptop camera was insanity

oh yeah, nope, not gonna work

very poor planning on my part...hehe

eh, this stuff requires time and space and money

11:09 AM

like, not much. I think I paid about $300 all told, including replacing a webcam that wandered off.

11:09 AM

but still

yeah, just a really bad time to be looking for webcams on my part

bad time to go shopping for anything, really

are webcams still out of stock everywhere?

seems like

I haven't looked again, but I definitely had to "settle for now" and buy a super cheap one about a month ago

Just did a quick search, and while supplies are low I could find some c920s and such. So not as dire as it was

woo!

yeah, those were definitely not there. I'm sure everyone got the same Google results when looking for reviews etc

yeah. I was poking around trying to find you a non-Amazon link

11:22 AM

I didn't find one and also didn't try very hard

11:23 AM

Newegg had a 3rd party selling some. Course, it's 3rd party so who knows

I have a dedicated rapsberry pi 4 with MotionEye and a C920 mounted to a boom arm on my work bench. Its always on and IP streaming, I just open xsplit and import it as a web page source.

12:32 PM

I'm trading up for a gopro 8 and hope that built in rtsp streaming works well

12:33 PM

Audio, I use a wireless USB lapel mic and Bluetooth ear buds so I don't get echo

@quattroquattro said

But due to a lack of digital content being produced we are not even a factor there.

For what my opinion is worth (<you paid, probably) this statement has the cart before the horse; nobody is producing any content, because they've never been able to GET any TO the DMS yootoob channel. I might be wrong, but my perception is that, were I to make a KILLER "how to hammer weld a draught tank bung in stainless steel", nobody knows how to get that into DMS' yootoob channel. I could post it to my own, but not DMS'. I think if we could get some info out about HOW to do it (and keep that through the changing of Chairs/Directors/Officers), I think more might appear...

There is some truth to that in that not many people have the know how to produce a good video. But we have been approached by people who want to do it and the things we have approved have never been finished. JJ made us a good template for committee level youtube commercials but it was right when covid-19 hit. We've had people film new tours and we've had people start a lot of stuff, but when it comes to getting into digital media and finishing it there has been little success. I think our priority right now should be getting the cart together to stream classes. Once we have some good ones we can do quick into and credits with jjs template and we will be able to start posting decent content.

2

looking forward to it. I think many people (NOT ME, though) see yootoobers and think "I could do that" without so much as an INKLING of what a PITA cutting together and editing a decent video is, or what kind of skill it takes to actually DO a "podcast" or "classstream" (or even a class worth a whooey, honestly). So yeah, I think a lot of us are gung-ho and find ourselves sunk out of site on a project after having had the best of intentions. I hope you and JJ can get 'em back onto track and look forward to seeing some good stuff. I know we have the talent...

Yea, I usually estimate 4-8 times the video length for processing and editing. We may get some folks willing to help out if we get raw material.

1

Many hands make light work...

FYI

5:11 PM

we actually do have access to the dallasmakerspace account

1

Cool. Document that shit, and get a few other "admins" in there, now, who will outlast the current B&O, or at least who can appoint a few more before they tear their asses...

5:15 PM

"having access" has come and gone...3 or 4 times to my observation...usually dependent on someone somewhere stumbling across someone with that knowledge, and then tracking down that one guy who set it up or whatever...no way to run a business.

lol

5:15 PM

not surprised

Yeah coul was the one who deleded all the board meetings

yep. THAT one was a...um...well...I think this is why the phrase SNAFU was invented, roughly.

5:17 PM

and Coul talked a great game for about 3 weeks then POOF

I was under the impression he was directed to delete them

2

I had that impression, too, or maybe more of a "conspired" situation, but...potaytoe, potahtoe.

they are still there

5:20 PM

just unlisted

Ah. That, I did not know...

Interesting. I have meetings I'd be curious to scroll back on

Yeah, I thought they were just delisted like a lot of Mark's videos

24 electronic proxies returned so far!

Do we have numbers for how many people voted in previous elections? I'm wondering how many more people will vote this time around.

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Annual_Member_Meeting_20190510#Timeline

Annual Member Meeting 20190510

10:26 AM

159 - enough to elect Directors, not enough to amend the bylaws

1

Mailed mine in. @judy Kriehn 's work of art as Civic Duty became Performance Art when I bubbled in my choices.

3

10:31 AM

I wish I had an ounce of her talent.

1

10:31 AM

Will have to settle for just being in her orbit.

1

If I'm understanding the timeline properly, the cutoff to request voting ability was yesterday, so as of this AM, once all processed, if any requests are outstanding, we have a solid number of eligible voters... any shot that's all zipped up and you're willing to share that number of potential voters? (edited)

she did a fantastic job on the ballot and bylaws

4

2

10:32 AM

agenda has preliminary numbers. (edited)

1

10:33 AM

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Annual_Member_Meeting_20200717#Quorum

Annual Member Meeting 20200717

10:35 AM

I'd also like to encourage everyone to vote 'for' on the bylaws proposals - especially 2, 3, 4, and 5

1

Excellent! Thank you!

10:41 AM

I wish I had an ounce of her talent.

Ditto for Erik, with appropriate pronoun sub, whose impeccable attention to detail and astoundingly dogged ability to overcome our severe deficit of documentational excellence makes this entire organization shine. A paragon we could all strive to emulate, though we will likely always fall short.

2

flatterer

1

ancient historical votes can be found on archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20150905080539/https://dallasmakerspace.org/voting/ballots/index/closed

@aceat64 when did your avatar turn Canadian?

last night

1:57 PM

my friend made it

that's pretty cool

it's hilarious in voice/video chat, because it animates when I talk

hehe

2:03 PM

It's funny to look at the CNC laser voting too. IMO, the way this was handled is what made me a fan of "ranked-choice voting"...hehe.

ranked choice or approval voting have their strengths

Trying to pick a laser cutter by "hobby/pro", then size, then wattage is probably not a good approach. I'd rather just put my preferences down in order of exact machine to purchase. I get that we didn't really have an easy way to do that at the time etc.

2:29 PM

I don't think we made it to the 3rd round?

I think that was when we ended up with a Full Spectrum, if I remember my laser history correctly.

yeah

They do make a 1kW laser made for metal...

2:53 PM

Or well, they sell it. No idea if they're making it. It's 1/4 the price of the metal cutting lasers engraving concepts offers.

The 2011-2015 voting results are fascinating, are the 2016-2019 available? Kind of wish these would be a bit easier to find for noobs (like me) with interest in history.

We found some online

3:51 PM

Not sure if archive.org has the more recent years

2017 and 2018 here: https://dallasmakerspace.simplyvoting.com/index.php

Dallas Makerspace :: Online Voting

Dallas Makerspace online voting website

4:00 PM

2019 here: https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/election-results-2019-board-bylaws/55577

4:01 PM

2016 here: https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/board-of-directors-election-and-logo-voting-results/8770

4:02 PM

2016 in screenshot for those who can't reach it:

4:03 PM

same for 2019:

Cool! Thank you.

np, was curious if we had them preserved somewhere myself

That Ken Purcell guy better not run again!

2

someone could transcribe the old voting system records to the wiki

4:16 PM

fun fact about the 2011 election, I only got 22 votes because I didn't vote for myself

4:16 PM

being a board member is an honor and a curse lol

Oh nice, otherwise you would've had 24

23

Ehh, I'm not sure there.

I don't think the voting system had any off-by-one errors lol

I've made off by one errors, a time or two.

The two hardest things in programming: 1. Cache invalidation 2. Naming things 3. Off by one errors

1

I'm not sure if you really made a typo or did that on purpose.

D. Making lists

Now I don't feel bad now about all the git and webcam talk that I took part in which felt so off topic

oh it was 100% on purpose, it's one of my go to bad jokes

5:27 PM

I will counter the puns with awful programming humor

Usually the joke involves an off by one error though...

man now you're just gaslighting me lol

Erik Smith in 2016... that poor bastard

4

2

Just think me or Chuck Baber could have the suckers in 2016 to replace you.

9:16 PM

If only I would have handed out free candy that year lol

9:16 PM

The strawberry candies that only grandparents have in glass bowls

W e r t h e r ' s O r i g i n a l s

aw man! Those strawberry candies are the best!

1

those are awesome

2

I must be the only non-Boomer that doesn't hate those

did....

10:09 PM

did I just get called a "Boomer"?

2

nah man @aceat64 loves those

yeah, they're great

A+, put them in my milennial gob

Erik sent out the electronic voting email from an @gmail account. I don't think that's a permabannable offense. What do you guys think?

I don't think anyone cares Raffi

Ok what about Kevin? Seems like some people cared about that. Isn't the accusation that he did business with a personal email?

no, you should try reading it

Am I missing a significant difference?

yes

Right, the claim isn't that he actually violated the rules. The claim is that he made it so that Jim can't tell if he violated the rules. Right?

11:02 PM

Is it against the rules to inadvertently make a change that makes it so that Jim can't track you?

read what Jim posted please

On Talk? Is it on a member only thread hidden from the public?

oh right, you got yourself banned

That's the claim, spamming and changing topics midstream

11:11 PM

Or, if you believe Lara, "I filed a complaint against you, recommending a two-week time out from TALK because you continued to harp about what you believed to be unfair moderation after two board members told you it was a dead issue. Please note that during your time out, you will not be able to post to TALK."

@DJ Vance I explained to the Board days ago and they had no real concerns. I'm done with Secretary after the election anyway.

11:58 PM

Also, IDGAF about your opinion at this point

12:00 AM

But hey, file a complaint if it pleases you

I definitely won't

But it violates the precious precious rules you so deeply care about

12:06 AM

Nevermind that DocuSign sent it and my personal account was simply reply-to

I'm serious, I'm not going to file a complaint. What good could come from that?

12:46 AM

And I won't assume malicious intent

then why bring it up like it's a cheap jab at "process" or something

12:49 AM

maybe you don't understand how your actions impact people, but this is why you continually run into issues when working with volunteers at dms

12:49 AM

try to spend some time thinking about things from someone else's perspective

For example

12:49 AM

I do

your phrasing looks like an attack on Erik, for all the work he did with the voting stuff

12:50 AM

if it's not, and you're trying to prove a point about some perceived process issue, the result is still the same, you look like a jerk

It's not an attack of Erik, it's an attack of blowing minor harmless rule violations out of proportion by assuming malicious intent

see, you're not understanding the viewpoint I'm describing

12:52 AM

you don't view it as an attack, but others do

It is an attack, like I said

I'll try to be clearer

12:53 AM

you don't view it as an attack on Erik, but others do

Who have you asked?

12:54 AM

Are you suggesting that what I said could easily be misinterpreted?

yes

Well we agree on that

great

12:55 AM

in the future, try to avoid things that cause that type of misinterpretation, and people will be more willing to work with you

Will do

Speaking of things that could be easily misinterpreted, I think this can be interpreted two ways (made clearer with parentheses): Kevin's interpretation: Require (chairs, officers, and individuals) (acting in a DMS capacity with 3rd parties via email) to use DMS’ provided email system. vs Jim's interpretation: Require (chairs), (officers), and (individuals acting in a DMS capacity with 3rd parties via email) to use DMS’ provided email system.

no, it has to do with the fact that Kevin blocked oversight, not that it was a personal account

1:20 AM

specifically for the spreadsheet tracking valuable DMS property

I think those two interpretations are reasonable, what do you guys think?

i think that you are willfully pedantic and live just to whine and cry and defend anything that goes against good order

Because that rule was linked in the complaint and the interpretation was debated in Kevin's hearing

cause reasons....

I think what would really help DMS is if we had collaboration that crossed the divide

because kevin chose to read only part of the phrasing not the whole thing

I think it's possible to disagree about really important issue and still collaborate

exactly what collaboration have you contributed to?

1:50 AM

better, what have you done for dms lately?

1:50 AM

besides whine, cry and run your mouth

I'm an atheist, and I debated a friend who is studying theology. One of my best friends when I was in South Carolina. We both spent a lot of time at the coffee shop. We often had debates about really important things like whether morality is objective or not. We'd disagree with each others arguments, but not once did it get personal. We had mutual respect. Even though we had strongly opposing viewpoints, we had tons of respect for each others intelligence and both argued in good faith. Even though I didn't change my mind on the existence of a god or the objectivity of morality, I feel like I gained a deep understanding of his views. I feel like I really understood exactly what beliefs I would have to change to agree with him.

What have I done for DMS lately? Not a whole lot. Ben asked me to help move stuff for the computer committee in preparation for opening up so I went and helped. Other than that, I was doing a weekly coder night for a while, not very well-attended, I only got it up to 3-5 attendees per meeting. Did a thing about Unity, did a few things about iOS development. I invited James to do a Talk on Dialogflow. I think he did two of those. I think he did a great job. There was going to be a competition with pizza giftcards involved.

2:11 AM

I think there are opportunities though. I think if people collaborate across the divide that would be really good. If it's in a public way, for example with an online event or class, I think that could do a lot to change the tone of the space.

@DJ Vance It is a good idea but how do you do that without identifying the divide

People are people, so why should it be, you and I get along so aaawfully, bummm, bummm, bummm...

I was doing a weekly coder night for a while, not very well-attended, I only got it up to 3-5 attendees per meeting. Did a thing about Unity, did a few things about iOS development. I invited James to do a Talk on Dialogflow. I think he did two of those. I think he did a great job. There was going to be a competition with pizza giftcards involved.

@DJ Vance The offer is still on the table if anyone finishes a prototype. For online classes @Melnick is teaching a bunch and getting fantastic response. We also filmed stuff for a ceramics class yesterday and spoke with someone from laser about filming the 101 class for them. There is a lot of work going on towards moving us to more online classes and online tool signoff. If you brought back your coder nights you would likely see more involvement as people have become more accustomed to online learning now that we've all been doing it for so many months. (edited)

1

The core at why there was a problem with a chair moving communications off of DMS controlled accounts was that it removed insight into where our very expensive cameras/equipment were going and with whom. Afterwards the discussion went that Kevin threatened to remove oversight intentionally. (edited)

Kevin has a copy of the panel interview and investigation video. You are welcome to ask him to view it.

I've seen it. I haven't read Jim's explanation to Kevin or Kevin's threat to take stuff off of Google Groups

I'll be doing a coding interview prep session in a week. Hopefully we can get people from both sides

https://calendar.dallasmakerspace.org/events/view/15844

I've seen it. I haven't read Jim's explanation to Kevin or Kevin's threat to take stuff off of Google Groups

@DJ Vance why do you act as proxy when you have incomplete information?

I don't think I'm acting as a proxy

1:15 PM

I can see how it would come off that way though

1:19 PM

I think it's clear from the video that Kevin and Jim have two different interpretations of the DMS email requirement. Does stating that make me a proxy? I don't think so.

When you start with the assumption that Erik having a replyto: that is the wrong address is the same as changing the group permission so that the organization can't have visibility into business related communication, yes. That makes it appear that you are acting as their proxy. All data related to DocuSign is tracked by DocuSign, easily reviewable and is the property of DMS. It's not even remotely the same thing.

Can members view the DocuSign data? If so, how? Can Infrastructure view all Google Groups regardless of some owner's config? (edited)

oh right, I forgot the Draco crew hates online voting because it's harder to gaslight people who aren't there in person

2:05 PM

remember last year when Erik and I had to do our own proxy voting setup just so a large portion of the membership could vote?

2:07 PM

Kris Anderson <kriskat30@dallasmakerspace.org> Fri, May 10, 2019, 10:38 AM to me, Alex, Dallas, David, David You have been notified of the minutes. As someone who is not a member you can do whatever you want however I will ask for all proxies you handle to be invalidated.

2:08 PM

this was of course after the lawyer told them the proxies can't just be invalidated

2

but hey at least kris used a dms email address...

1

lol

Does dms still use that lawyer?

I thought the current board found a different lawyer

"oh right, I forgot the Draco crew hates online voting because it's harder to gaslight people who aren't there in person" ... wow that is a false statement ... I was the one that suggested it this year

It's... Hard to argue that suggesting such an obvious thing has any value. In a year where we don't want to hold an in person election, online voting would be a thing wether you said it or not.

lol @Draco I had to un-ignore you to find your pedantry on this topic previously: https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/membership-meetings-quorum-and-votes/54603/5?u=hon1nbo You constantly argued against our system claiming it's not allowed, despite claiming to be in favor

Online Voting at an Online Meeting has always been fine ... or Online Proxies has always been fine ... even last year

2:24 PM

You must have misunderstood

2:25 PM

SimplyVoting is not a proxy was my issue

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/online-option-for-2019-board-election-proxies/55107

2:26 PM

then there is that dumpster fire of a thread

2:26 PM

except is is draco

2:26 PM

just pedantry

2:26 PM

anyway back to the mute/ignore. I've had my fill of reading this channel for the day

I had no issue with Docusign last year or this year

some sure did

lol @Draco I had to un-ignore you to find your pedantry on this topic previously: https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/membership-meetings-quorum-and-votes/54603/5?u=hon1nbo You constantly argued against our system claiming it's not allowed, despite claiming to be in favor

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium Hey, Jim, you actually asked me about this in person at the time. I was providing information for you, and Draco, and Kris, and everybody involved. There were issues with proper handling of the vote, the bulk of which were remedied - but were legit to bring up while they hadn't been.

what?

For disclosure for those who weren't there, I was providing parliamentary opinion as I had offered my services as Professional Registered Parliamentarian pro bono to the space to figure out how to handle the multiple issues we were running into with elections at the time - some of which meant that, if not resolved, we wouldn't be able to hold any valid votes at our annual meeting at all.

lol

7:21 PM

i remember you

7:21 PM

perceived issue

I'd hope so! Not exactly new.

7:22 PM

Perceived issue?

the issues were not issues

7:22 PM

i.e. made up

7:22 PM

a figment of draco's imagination

I gave, and stand by, my professional opinion. And helped both sides come to a resolution on them.

7:23 PM

If you would like to file a complaint on my professional conduct or performance, the National Association has a mechanism for that.

considering that we don't use roberts rules...

7:24 PM

nor do we actually use src3 strictly

7:24 PM

why would i file a complaint against you?

That is of no relevance. My performance is independent of the rules set used by the organization involved.

some pigs are more equal...

Very few use straight Robert's - or, for that matter, even straight src3 - which isn't even really possible, as it is missing too many fringe cases to cover everything.

7:26 PM

The other US parliamentary organization - which I am also a member of - certifies professionals on 5 or 6 different texts.

the whole bs with draco and his "bylaws group" and the fact that the last board actually entertained such nonsense was laughable and sad beyond belief

7:26 PM

that and wasted member funds on meeting with the lawyer

The core premise is the same: the expertise isn't in knowing one book, or even six; it's in knowing the roots of parliamentary procedure, interpretation of written rule, and how to use both of those to run smoother meetings.

which has what to do with organziation policy?

I wasn't in the bylaws group, but I did suggest - to both Draco and Jim, actually - that fixing up some of the more glaring inconsistencies with the bylaws would help prevent the issues we had in the future.

7:29 PM

Organization policy is codified in bylaws, and said bylaws form the framework for what you can and can't do in a meeting, as they are the primary rules that are documented and agreed to within an organization. Both in the context of parliamentary law and pragmatically in state statute.

https://youtu.be/NNto0bq5Ds8

Mark Havens

Evolution of Trust: Dallas Makerspace Edition

our bylaws need to be thoroughly re-worked

7:46 AM

however, I suspect that the necessary changes would prove sufficiently controversial that they would never pass

I am pretty sure I mentioned that, too - but I also mentioned, having worked with a number of orgs, 1) the difficulty of passing a wholesale top-down new set of bylaws in even the most disciplined and unified of bodies, and 2) the inherent best-case futility (and worst-case... well, it's bad) of metaphorically taking a scalpel that belongs to a surgeon and handing it to a committee of interested non-medics :)

7:47 AM

Yup, you got that out faster than I did :)

our roots as an informal organization that's never come to terms the failure of informal consensus at a certain scale is a big factor

Yup, certainly a relevant component

7:50 AM

Robert actually had a famous(-for-him) quote saying something similar

7:51 AM

It's actually at the beginning of every RONR, come to think :)

Why doesn't Mark spend time on what he would do to lead DMS, instead of harping on the past?

3

9:26 AM

Shitting on what other members, D & O and volunteers have done is easy. Actually leading is hard.

3

1

How about spending time on just helping the organization out? Show up, do things, etc

2

How about he never apologized for his wife screwing DMS for over $9,000 for teaching class for certifications where she did not have credentials to give certifications.

9:35 AM

Using game theory for a specific example as how DMS works is dumb. All those behaviors are very common in life in general. The only thing I got out of it is that in the video, one is the Simpleton and one is the Cheater. You can easily determine who is who.

I have paid little attention to Mark's videos

You are better at spending your time on higher quality pursuits.

@Lampy (Ken Purcell) pretty much anything is a higher quality pursuit isn't it?

Speaking of helping out, Jim managed to pull everything together last minute and we've got two big hang-from-the-ceiling style air filters in the warehouse.

5

did you guys price out the filters?

9:56 AM

and who paid?

Jim knows better about the money. We've got two filters in decently good shape and two brand new.

2

Which warehouse? The laser/automotive warehouse or the ceramics/plastic/machine shop/jewelry workshop?

They're just sitting on a pallet in the ceramics/machine shop warehouse. One for metal and one will go somewhere near laser/auto/woodshop.

Oh. You were saying he rounded up enough truck owners to p/u the filter thingies he posted about. I interpreted it as having gotten two units installed.

Oh no sorry, rounded up a trailer and got them picked up.

woodshop always pisses and moans about the cost of filters for the Jet air cleaners - I gather that with a surprisingly small minimum order you can get filters custom-made by a number of outfits at a fraction of what Jet demands for their brand

Yes you can. That's exactly what my boss did for the two Jet clones we have at work

How about he never apologized for his wife screwing DMS for over $9,000 for teaching class for certifications where she did not have credentials to give certifications.

11:51 PM

The Sigma 6 class?

2

11:51 PM

That was his wife?

1

ex wife IIRC

Yes it was his ex-wife who screwed him over as well. It had nothing to do with Mark.

And his new wife who's half his age. I hope her and kid are doing well

As long as she's over the age of consent for America.... age doesn't matter

1

I only mentioned he never apologized or assisted in the issue with his wife, later ex-wife.

PSA: Voting members should vote in the DMS election!

12

9:29 AM

I won't endorse any specific candidates, but I do feel that bylaws amendments 2, 3, and 5 are exceptionally worthy of a For vote

Yes Sir!

@Lampy (Ken Purcell) I think his point is that the explanation for that may likely be embedded in the statement itself.

11:05 AM

Also, I think it's kind of a weird position to put someone in to ask them to apologize for their spouse. Not just weird for them, but weird for their spouse. Apologizing for one's child, sure. But for another adult, with individual agency?

11:07 AM

Hell, if I were that spouse I might just be pretty peeved at someone presuming I should feel like what I did merited an apology in the first place. Independent of whether an apology is due. In this case, it seems like a sound argument that one was. But if the person who did the wrong in the first place isn't sorry to begin with (certainly not sorry enough to apologize themselves), how is an apology from someone else in any way useful?

@slinkygn (George) people apologize for their spouses all the time. Especially in the cases of fraud or other offensive behavior. It's pretty standard behavior, just watch the evening news any time someone even semi famous gets arrested. Or talk to the sober spouse of someone that had too much to drink at a party. It's not too much to ask to expect an some form of contrition from someone who's spouse ripped us off.

"People do it" vs "people should do it" is a very different statement. Frankly, though, I don't tend to see that on the evening news at all. The spouse usually stays mum. If you see it on the news, it's the person themselves apologizing with the spouse standing in the background.

11:33 AM

Besides, I don't think it's a sufficient counterargument to the agency and independence of adults, and the responsibilities that come with that, to say, "people do it all the time."

11:34 AM

If you do something, and you think you did the right thing, and then somebody apologizes for you -- you don't find that belittling, demeaning? Trivializing your decision and your rationale?

11:35 AM

And if you do something, and you know you did something wrong, and you don't apologize -- that speaks volumes to you, and nobody should somehow be able to ameliorate that.

11:38 AM

Both spouses in a relationship are independent adults. Nobody forces anyone -- or their spouse, which in another context could themselves just as easily be the "anyone" -- to deal with their spouse. It's not the first time we've had a snake oil salesman teach a course, you know. We didn't demand that their spouse come in and apologize -- easy enough to make the phone call -- because it's not relevant.

Yeah I don't care about Mark not apologizing for Diedre. He didn't have to.

1

Sorry. I just find the whole idea of insisting that someone has a responsibility to answer for their spouse to be incredibly toxic and demeaning. That tactic's been used to subjugate the independence of one or the other partner in a relationship far too often for far too long.

1

I did not insist anything, he didn't say anything about the mess we had to clean up. Nothing. He talks about community but doesn't really participate in it.

3

Mark not actually doing anything for the space is something I agree with.

That's a valid complaint. That he "didn't say anything" about something that involved his spouse, and that some seem to think that reflects on him as failing some moral or conceptual obligation to the 'space, isn't. Nor is saying that that is proof he doesn't participate.

12:15 PM

Keep it above the belt, and I have no issue with the complaint.

12:16 PM

There's waaaay too much "it's okay if I'm shitty because the other side's doing it too" in this election. I don't think I've ever felt quite as "a pox on both their houses" as I do this year -- and that's saying something.

Yeah i think there's plenty very valid reasons to criticize Mark this just isn't one I follow.

12:21 PM

For another take on it that both reflects why Mark doesn't represent Diedre and why Mark is dumb-- some people always used to assume and push the narrative that Alex and I agreed on everything in regards to the Space and governance and all kinds of things. Mark Havens, in fact, once came to a PR meeting for chair where I was running and actively campaigned against me bc I was supposedly just a mouthpiece for Alex, whatever that means. A committee that I had been actively volunteering in for something like 2 years at that point, putting together more and more organized open houses every year, going to events, putting out copy, spending the vast majority of my free time in. A committee I had never seen him at a meeting before in, he came in talking about how I was a good worker bee but not good leadership (a comment he's repeated about many others) and that Alex had enough sway as President etc etc. And he managed to make his case because he's Mark and in the end it was a close vote.

4

2

if there's actually anything I've done that's shitty, please let me know, always open to constructive criticism

1

12:36 PM

@mell that was a concern by some when Nicole and I were on the board, we just laughed about it, because Nicole was almost always the dissenting voice lol

Ikr! Like none of those people ever actually had DMS conversations with me and Alex because we disagreed all the time. (edited)

I'm pretty sure I am much less likely to have any sway over Nicole's views at DMS or elsewhere than other people

I've always thought of you and Alex as independent thinkers and both do excellent and productive work for DMS. I was sloppily trying to comment that Mark is still doing Mark things except he is making it very personal for some people.

3

. She's immune to you at this point.

1

if there's actually anything I've done that's shitty, please let me know, always open to constructive criticism

@aceat64 as the person that specifically cited both sides as "shitty," I'll be the first to say that may have been overly strong. In particular, I don't think it applies to everyone on each side. And specifically, I've always thought you're a pretty civil guy. That said, I do think it's a fair thing to say that tolerating bad behavior on one's side instead of calling it out is still a significant factor in bad blood getting built up between good people. I think individually pointing those instances out to those people within one's camp, and potentially making a more public statement about not engaging in that way if it persists, is an unpleasant but necessary component of that. And while I (or anyone external to the groups) certainly wouldn't see the personal conversations, the fact that the same people keep repeating the same behaviors would lead one to believe that they're not taken seriously by the group.

3:46 PM

It's a hard thing to do, and I get that. And I also don't think just throwing people under the bus and being all, "man, XYZ is such a DICK" is particularly beneficial. Don't think I've called any specific person out, don't plan to, don't think it should likely happen at all except in the most extreme of circumstances.

3:46 PM

Since I'm also in neither camp, it would do little good for me to do so, natch.

3:46 PM

But nah, Andy, you're pretty clean. :)

oh I for sure call people out lol

1

Tl;dr both sides have some shitty, but not everybody's shitty. I shouldn't have implied that, and I'm sorry.

last round of electronic proxies have been sent

5

3

@mell I had no idea that happened. That's an awful way to treat our volunteers.

mell has been abused as a volunteer

11:14 PM

but hey people are upset that we kicked people out for threatening volunteers

It's honestly kind of crazy how much my exposure to DMS has changed the way I approach people. Like just by nature I always want to like people and assume good intentions. But after DMS... mmmm Not so much.

11:18 PM

Yup. This board is constantly being criticized for kicking out people for no reason etc. But hey I'm pretty happy they kicked out the guy who told me he'd "start swinging" when I asked him if he could move his motorcycle over a bit so we could pull in the truck for logistics offsiting.

clearly, it can't always be a hippie jam fest

It's a pity. I like jam.

But I also have to add that I've made lots of great friends here and love lots of my memories. DMS is and I think always will be a mixed bag.

that dude wasn't even working on the bike either, he was literally just parked

11:34 PM

I'm literally the antichrist and I don't park my bike inside unless it's raining

@aceat64 better get to it - there are souls to corrupt

1

But hey I'm pretty happy they kicked out the guy who told me he'd "start swinging" when I asked him if he could move his motorcycle over a bit so we could pull in the truck for logistics offsiting.

@mell He was only tempBanned and can return 10 days from now. After which he "will be under probation once this expulsion expires until 2021-07-24 and subject to immediate expulsion for any failure to strictly adhere to the rules and bylaws of the Dallas Makerspace". But we see how well a similar provision worked with Mark Havens.

We expell too many, we don't expell enough... https://media.tenor.com/images/23332eb0d024cc1566c878e70f071945/tenor.gif

11:58 PM

(not on premise of course)

But... Bill was tight with the Kris posse, so he may not return anyway. Let's hope anyway. His pickup always had the look of a residence (bags of crap piled to the ceiling inside). And since you can't live here anymore.

New dms drinking game. Take a shot each time someone mentions banning, being banned or talking of a ban. Livers beware. Also drink responsibility. Dont do this game cause you'll get alcohol poisoning... and don't drink at DMS

5

Maybe, instead of doing alcohol drinking games, we could switch to water drinking games. Then we’d just pee a lot.

1

not amusingly, some frats were doing this, which is dangerous as well...couple people died, if I recall the news stories at the time... https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/318619

Water intoxication: What happens when you drink too much water?

Drinking too much water can lead to water intoxication, which can be fatal. However, this is rare. Learn about the symptoms, causes, and risk factors here.

9:57 AM

https://www.healthline.com/health/how-much-water-can-kill-you

How Much Water Can Kill You? Water Intoxication Symptoms & Causes

Water is crucial for your health, but drinking too much of it can become life-threatening. Learn how much is too much and how to recognize the symptoms of water intoxication.

9:58 AM

<-- deter downer, I know...

9:58 AM

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/hazing-death-too-much-water/ https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/CHICO-Fraternity-pledge-died-of-water-poisoning-2733418.php (edited)

Hazing Death: Too Much Water

Cops: Calif. Student Dies From 'Water Intoxication' At Fraternity

CHICO / Fraternity pledge died of water poisoning / Forced drinking...

A Chico fraternity pledge died of water poisoning, authorities said Thursday as experts warned that the dangerous hazing ritual has killed at least one other person as fraternities are replacing alcohol bingeing with excessive water-drinking. Matthew Carrington, 21, of Pleasa...

Maybe we do push-ups each time it's mentioned. We would all be super jacked!

yeah... wait... are you trying to prove that too many pushups is just as dangerous as too much alcohol? (edited)

2

And people … that quilt that was posted above with all the buttons was Marks Artwork not Max’s …

This is probably the most damning thing Draco has ever said. Because either he hasn't bothered to read and understand anything people have posted about this issue, or he truly thinks the rest of us are idiots.

2

10:13 AM

for those out of the loop, he's talking about this "artwork" Mark made to make fun of and harass other members. Which is what got him banned in 2016.

As I understand it the star trek onesie is a direct insult to Max, is that correct? The buttons then insult each individual candidate, right? Is this what he means by community?

2

It's not what I mean when i say community

10:32 AM

and I don't think he was saying community when he did that

No, he was, by his account, harassing people to antagonize the board. To "test the system" as he put it.

10:35 AM

At least, that's the best I can remember.

Alright .. sounds about right

It doesn't make sense to me so it can be hard to accurately portray

I wonder if he published a study

Like... An academic study?

lol .. well he was testing .. I'm joking

Oh lol sorry

Yeah no doubt he has a rebel streak in him

10:39 AM

but part of that... as long as it doesn't get out of hand .. and I'm NOT talking going to the level of harassment .. I admire because it is that sort of risk taker that is valued in entrepreneurs

1

Max had a very nice star trek costume on display, Mark put a button on it without his permission which damaged the fabric (very tight weave iirc).

10:41 AM

Mark didn't apologize, claimed someone else must have put the button on it, then made that "artwork" to call Max a baby.

I don't think there was any evidence that Mark put anything on Max's unifom ... and Max is okay with Mark at this point

That's not rebellion, that's being an asshole

4

Mark was literally handing out buttons at the time ... I still have one (edited)

Yeah...I do wish Mark didn't think of the space as a startup. Our goal isn't to make money, or even to produce anything. It's a weird analogy.

1

1

Mark also said at the meeting that he had talked to Max and been forgiven, which wasn't true either.

the post fact age. what a time to be alive.

3

It's great that they have made up, but that doesn't mean his actions in the past are suddenly ok.

1

I do believe there's a photo of a Mark button on Max's costume.

Anyone who can condone that kind of behavior says all I need to know about their character

2

I have no doubt that it got on Max's uniform .. but as I said .. Mark was literally handing out buttons to all

And making up today, doesn't change history

10:45 AM

Draco, so you were there?

10:45 AM

I forget when you joined DMS

I was around .. yes ... I have one of the buttons

Are you saying that someone else was putting the buttons up on objects in the space? Because that seems unlikely.

I don't think it was unlikely at all

Generally when you give someone a button, it's so they can wear it.

But this is old shit being dredged up ....

Let's presume Mark didn't put the button on Max's costume. Why make the quilt calling him a baby?

Andrew loves to do that to discredit

So is this a really old photo, or did he steal some kid's identity?

LOL

there's a predictable bias in how we're to give some benefit of the doubt while intensely questioning the motives of others

Where's that from?

http://ranger.uta.edu/~iahmad/gaann.html

I also found that photo on UTA's website - looks like it's going on 20 years old

Just wondering what the status of his phd research is.

10:49 AM

I'd hope they frown on plagiarism

this supposed open-mindedness kind of fails instantly, thus I have little choice but to dismiss it out of hand

Fuck, that picture sort of looks like me... Now I need to go saw my face off

1

Just dye your hair, join me in being a rebel

I have been considering a mohawk, maybe I should dye it too

Ah, so i wasn't the only confused person for a minute.

But this is old shit being dredged up ....

@Draco But there's a reason. It shows a pattern of continually hurting our members, hurting our space, and (I think you'll like this one) hurting our community. Mark hasn't changed. And these are the expectations people should have if they elect him as one of our leaders. Bullying, threats, intimidation.

6

11:05 AM

you don't build community by being an asshole to "test the system"

1

I've been dealing with Mark's "experiments" for ten years. I'm exhausted.

1

stuff like that is why I didn't run for a 6th term

11:08 AM

I wanted to just get back to making stuff, instead of dealing with jerks so that other people would have a place to make stuff

11:08 AM

I only reluctantly got back into the political crap when I was asked to check the finances

11:09 AM

it's draining dealing with this stuff, it makes it so much harder to build up the community and organization

I know that I definitely don't have a place in the kind of community Mark wants to build.

2

he made that clear in the early days, thankfully he was never on the board

11:10 AM

my biggest regret with DMS was tolerating low level abuse for so long, in the interest of "just getting along"

11:11 AM

I'm sorry Haley

Yeah. Burnout is real but I think would've been manageable for many of our leaders if they didn't have to deal with this kind of bullshit.

5

I don't think you can get rid of angry people. Sometimes people have a bad day, fuck... Everyone is having a bad year right now.

11:15 AM

But that doesn't mean we have to allow everything

Exactly, a person who does nothing but instigate and troll isn't worthy of a membership to the space. People like that contribute nothing and drive away people that want to contribute

1

^^this

I try my best not to think of things like harassment in terms of people, but in terms of behavior. People can change.

11:23 AM

I've seen people change because DMS is a social skills gauntlet. Moreso the more involved you want to be.

It seems like a decade is enough time for someone to change, if they are the same today as they were then it's time to stop giving them another chance

But Mark's been here long enough to get the hang of things.

another pattern I see at DMS all the time is defending bad behavior

I see that in the SoI threads

we don't need - not should we want - to be workplace strict, but we'd sure like to be better than the level of behavior you expect from randoms at the megalomart, a public park, etc

Asking repetitive questions and not respecting answers
Dogpiling (as in many people jumping in and onto the wound, amplifying the negative criticism)
Being adversarial rather than showing decorum as in previous elections

Asking repetitive questions and not respecting answers

to be expected when there are responses rather than answers

Dogpiling (as in many people jumping in and onto the wound, amplifying the negative criticism)

see above

Being adversarial rather than showing decorum as in previous elections

^^^^ this is another example

Draco if you think our elections have ever had decorum....oh boy

Go back and look at the Ask a Candiate threads in the years before

and you're part of the pattern of behavior I mentioned earlier

2

you didn't see this kind of thing .. because it wasn't allowed by the moderators

DMS elections are a circus. They always have been.

1

Not anywhere like this one

but worry not! my DMS political career is ending on Friday.

Erik for Board! 2021

I hope the subsequent Board - whomever they are - well

I will slot this one is a doozy. Never seen people make YouTube campaign videos before.

11:35 AM

*Admit

the DMS business model has not adapted to its scale, and this will forever be a problem

1

11:36 AM

it requires an unreasonable amount of volunteer labor to keep the organization operational and solvent

I'm not certain we had a solid business model .. we have a fly by the seat of our pants model

11:37 AM

We might need to work on that .. I agree

the sorts of things that most organizations would treat as settled policy aren't at DMS

DMS is not a normal corporation... and trying to apply normal business models .. leads to distrust

I don't think anyone is proposing we go fully corporate, with a workplace culture.

Cubicles .. for safety! lol

at some point the distrust of a handful of noisy members is irrelevant

I think we have two handfuls of members annoying each other for years

Draco you seem to conviently forget how Kris railed against Alex, Robert and others talking about how she was going to bring DMS "out of high school"

3

4

It just has reached such an extreme ... we need to figure out how to get along and calm this down

still relevant https://hackaday.com/2018/04/18/when-hackerspace-directors-burn-out/

Jenny List

When Hackerspace Directors Burn Out

A friend of mine once suggested that there should be a support group for burned-out former hackerspace directors. We could have our own Village of the Damned at summer camps, where we’d sit m…

11:44 AM

the bylaws, earlier versions of the standing rules, and the lore - gods, the lore - all have their roots in small-group dynamics where informal consensus is a simple powerful effective thing

11:45 AM

but them days are gone - were gone when I joined in 2015 - and now that the number of true regulars exceeds Dunbar's number it's time to admit that they're broken and we need to adopt large-organization methods

I think committees can be shaped to bring a new level to the consensus model ....we have alot of work to do on committees however ..

11:45 AM

to make that reality

if that's too much to bear, then maybe it's time to pack it in

Draco, perhaps try working with a committee to be an example?

I have worked with many committees

dude, the direct-democracy pluralism you keep circling around reached its limits before I joined; it kept staggering on because of the inertia of Ladybird and prior members, but it's now apparent that the dynamic can't keep its corpse in motion

I'm not for direct democracy ... everyone vote on everything .. this is one issue I hope to bring out as a problem with committees

excellent @Draco, so you have some directly actionable ideas then?

I do

perhaps a committee structure that's working and can be used as an example?

@Draco Please create a framework for committees where an active chair has the flexibility they want WHILE keeping crooks & liars from tanking the committee and the space.

2

^^^ yes

I think committees can be shaped to bring a new level to the consensus model ....we have alot of work to do on committees however ..

@Draco this is vague, has no actionable information, it's just "things aren't working" which is fine to say, but you should follow up with specifics on how they should change

11:50 AM

the best thing is to have a solid game plan, write it out

11:50 AM

get buy in

11:50 AM

deliver

11:52 AM

this is a bit meta, but notice how I'm not just telling you "stop doing this" or "this isn't helpful", I'm giving you direct, actionable information

@Draco, I was asking you for ideas. 'Cause you have some magic sauce we do not know about. Was it Tequila Night, Table Dancing or Theft they kept the community functioning?

2

Hahaha ... Lampy

11:53 AM

I do get ya'lls point .. and I will formalize some ideas that I have so that we might move forward to getting buy in

One of the main reasons I don't give you much credit, Draco, is because you're an anti-solution guy

and see what works best

from the start of DMS, they way we handle stuff is "don't bring problems, bring solutions"

I love that, Andrew

that's not saying "don't complain about something being wrong/broken", that's saying follow up with a way to fix it

Perfect idea

11:54 AM

I think I shall .... look forward to putting an action idea in writing

11:54 AM

several I have

produced you have not (edited)

Working on it, ATM

I sent off my proxy vote via mail Monday. It should have arrived by now

I did the docusign online how do I know its counted?

@ESmith or whoever is on voting committee?

You should have receiced a receipt email @themitch22 that means it was received and stored in DocuSign

Ok

I imagine he'll pull out of DS after the deadline

2:52 PM

Not sure how they're handling physical

I still get Verizon corporate voting because of my 401k benefits, I've never voted once.

2:54 PM

Most board elections like this?

Most I've been involved with are heavily proxied

I guess if you're a shareholder right?

Yep, very similar processes

2:55 PM

At work we just did the exact same thing for our board through DocuSign (and DS only)

I would imagine that most board elections are digital, but are still unlike ours because they don't have a contingent of people intent on disrupting the process.

@ESmith or whoever is on voting committee?

@Axeonos A number of members whom have all opted to contact me via as many unique ways as possible, making a count difficult

At least with an activist investor the investor has to come up with a ton of cash to be an activist in the first place

this is depressingly going to be a very paper-centric process

@Axeonos A number of members whom have all opted to contact me via as many unique ways as possible, making a count difficult

@ESmith so you got my carrier pigeon then?

where the e-proxy count stands (and yes we're going to print every one of those)

3:04 PM

@quattroquattro that depends on how ambitious Beth's cats are

5

At this rate we might make the 1/3 number by electronic ballots alone.

I expect we will

3:09 PM

2/3 ... depends on how steep the tail is near the cutoff

I would be amazed to hit 2/3 before counting the mail in ballots

3:11 PM

I'll be merely surprised to hit 2/3 with all forms included.

1

I hope that we're looking at the usual tendency to wait until the last minute as opposed to voter apathy. I also hope that the clearly-communicated electronic proxy further erodes apathy. (edited)

Well in that respect 159 is the number to beat. Not sure what percentage that was at the time.

I did those meeting minutes since literally noone else could be arsed

3:18 PM

to the next person that administers an online DMS election - find a better way than I did

I wrote in Erik Smith, Ken Purcell, Stan Simmons, Kris Anderson and Art Bell

3:23 PM

j/k

And to answer Axeies comment/question, ballots received are going into the locked mailbox by the copier/server room. When it’s time to pull ballots out, it will be managed same as collecting $$ from the tombstones. Opened with a witness present.

2

I really wish there was a way to resolve the voters who don't vote at all

4:00 PM

That's why we were going to try resetting voting rights

An election that goes on for a month? Posted as a condition for logging into Talk, or accessing the building? Dunno.

could do a liveness check 6 months out

4:36 PM

technically speaking, the bylaws allow the standing rules to determine how one moves between supporting and regular classes

knows the realities of Draco's ballot, but is keeping the actual content confidential until the election (edited)

so have a process written into the rules to clear up the voter roles at a set time or something

Or have them expire after a set period, such as 12 months

harder to handle without automation though

Aye

How about just expiring rights for anyone that doesn't vote in the election. Make it use it or lose it, if they want it back they have to request it again

Dec 1: send notification to all members that if they don't renew their voting rights, they will expire Jan 1

4:41 PM

yeah, use it or lose it could also work

4:41 PM

it's trivial to request them back

4:41 PM

and has the least amount of overhead

4:41 PM

because we simply look at the list of who voted and clear everyone but them from the AD group (edited)

I was thinking something like "use it or lose it" would require a "choose not to vote, but keep rights" option for the ballot

159 for 1/3 or 2/3?

Lol nvm... (edited)

could just have an "abstain" option on the ballot

1

4:48 PM

1/3 for general quorum, 2/3 for bylaws changes

159 was last year's number

4:49 PM

Current number is on the agenda on wiki

4:49 PM

188 or something

Abstention is voting against insofar as the bylaws amendments go

Right. It just shows participation

I want to vote against one ... But I like sex ,,, wait ,,

Abstinence

I dont get it

"Abstention is voting against insofar as the bylaws amendments go"

7:53 PM

never mind lol

Expiring voting rights was tried in 2016, right?

7:58 PM

...or 2017. I'm gonna have to look that up; can't recall.

7:59 PM

Rights expired after each election, and you had to resubmit your request to receive voting rights.

7:59 PM

(and by "each" I mean "that one" -- that at most lasted one more election, and then it went away by some mechanism unknown to me)

8:00 PM

not sure it even lasted the one more, tbh -- had decided by then to step out of those matters for a bit

8:02 PM

also: could someone point me to where it says an abstention is a "no" for purposes of bylaws amendments? That's a change from previously, so I have some reading to do

8:07 PM

on the broader topic of abstentions, I'd kinda they remain what they traditionally are -- abstaining from voting, the purpose of which is kinda defeated by having to participate in the vote to check the "abstain" box. I think a well-implemented expiration policy solves the problem well enough. The act and subsequent measure of non-participation in a vote is a meaningful thing. There are many other ways to solve the problem of inactivity than going there.

8:10 PM

(looking at my email, it looks like voting rights were definitely expired and re-signed up for after the 2017 election, possibly 2016 as well but still not sure about that.)

The problem with voting rights resetting for all is very simple .. Board Members have to be in Good Standing to be board members. In order to be in Good Standing, you have to be a Regular Member And all members in good standing have to have the same rights, privileges, restrictions and conditions. All Board Members have to have Voting Rights or No one has them. (edited)

8:21 PM

The way we currently judge who is a Regular Member is by Voting Rights (edited)

8:25 PM

There is some pedantry for ya to mull over.

(edited)

8:28 PM

Okay maybe it isn't that simple

8:28 PM

But there ya are

8:31 PM

You could I suppose reset all the members voting rights except Board Members and Officers. But this is making everyone else Supporting Members. (edited)

Plenty of wiggle room to argue voting rights are distinct from being in good standing

Members in good standing shall be entitled to one vote in all elections and special voting events as determined by the Board of Directors.

So by that Good Standing seems to imply Voting Rights

It's a bad sentence

Rephrase that to encompass much of the ByLaws

But one could argue that as determined by the Board of Directors. applied to the entirety of the sentence

8:45 PM

Bylaws are rife with these problems for sure

So (Members in good standing shall be entitled to one vote in all elections and special voting events) (as determined by the Board of Directors.) vs (Members in good standing shall be entitled to one vote in) (all elections and special voting events as determined by the Board of Directors.) vs (Members in good standing shall be entitled to one vote in all elections and ) (special voting events as determined by the Board of Directors.) (edited)

However, this shall soon not be my problem

hahaha .. nods true

8:49 PM

Time to fire up the old Bylaw Discussion Group again ..

facepalm

That possiblity exists

I really wish we could just replace them in whole

8:50 PM

with some standard boilerplate

8:50 PM

and modifications

8:51 PM

as far as the Official Bylaws Group ... only you would know ... I'm not talking about that group But just a discussion group

8:51 PM

interst group

8:51 PM

but right now .. too many things on my plate

8:51 PM

and Freddy wouldn't approve

Okay ill bite... whats your obsession with Freddy? He has literally not been in this conversation... this borders on stalking my dude... its not healthy. Do you need an intervention?

1

We were cool and worked fairly well together for some time in Infra .. I even voted him Chair ... I liked him

Its okay to ask for help

Then he became a thorn in my side ... and i would like to see us get on better again

8:57 PM

I was hoping that he would join the convo

I think it may be best to stay away from each other. You know what they say... absence makes the heart grow fonder.... but seriously consider a rest bro.... this shit ain't healthy... boarder line stalking

Wait .. mentioning him is boarder line stalking ... when was the last time I brought him up .. I think you are exaggerating

From another point of view this shit is every God damn day.... please stop. Get some help

9:01 PM

Draco I'm serious

I am to ... please point to successive instances .. because right now I think you are seeing things that are not there (edited)

Scroll up. Every god damn day. All of talk or discord...

I did a search .. most of the time I mention the word Freddy .. I am talking to him

9:03 PM

It is because I talk to him that I mention him

9:04 PM

most of the time HE chimes in on my convo to call me a troll or pedent

9:04 PM

Go scroll back youself

Did and from an outsider point of view nothing changes of my original statement

Yes the bylaws should be replaced with something more consistent, ideally something that a similar nonprofit uses. I not-so-humbly think that proposals 2, 3, and 5 on the ballot are useful changes that will benefit the organization. proposal 1 is all Andrew and I agree with the idea from a risk-management perspective, however I do not feel as strongly about it as the others. proposal 4 is actually there because our attorney suggested that we include such a provision explicitly in the bylaws.

1 and 4 are the main ones I disagree with

a general theme of the complaints I hear about the bylaws is their lack of specificity, which I feel is misplaced - bylaws draw hard lines which are defined by processes that sit atop them such as rules and procedures.

I'm not certain why you decided to limit the topics of the member meetings as we have a rule that allows for voting by the membership to decide (edited)

that die has largely been cast, however - regardless of how the votes breakdown I fear we're not going to make 2/3 quorum

9:34 PM

I condensed them into things that the bylaws already spell out

9:34 PM

while adding something that I think we all want - even the appointed board members - election of board members in the event of a vacancy

Yeah i saw that

member meetings do not have standing rules making power - any such power would be subordinate to the power of the Board - this is spelled out in the bylaws themselves and even more fundamentally in the certificate of formation

It is very minor rule but it is in there "Personal property may be stored elsewhere with the approval of a member of the Board or by a vote of the membership."

the Board could incorporate an informal power into something that's similar to a member meeting such as I proposed for quasi SRC3 but it would essentially have to go through the Board

9:38 PM

a very strange thing to be in there and I should have removed it

9:38 PM

ah well

ooooo Freddy .. the Fredmister .. Fredinator .. good to see ya man .. wondering when you would show up

9:39 PM

I wanted to talk to you about doing a 10x10 together for the new 10x10 project to help bring people together

Like an Asian soap drama....

LOL

I think if you heard what my idea for a 10x10 with you would be, you would be interested

No what is it?

lol nah

9:40 PM

i'm good

ok no worries

9:43 PM

@ESmith ... I would like to see more involvement ... I envision twice a year having an online proxy vote through some sort of service ... emails would go out .. none of this snail mail rubbish .. and people could vote on various things that people have proposed. The Board would have to put weight to the vote.

9:43 PM

But I think it might engage people

something for the next Board, Secretary, whatnot to consider

Yup ... although the mailouts this year were FAR from rubbish .. they were AWESOME

9:46 PM

but I hope in the future unneeded

I didn't get it in writing, but the attorney did indicate that we don't have to physically mail members notices

This is the kind of thing that we need put on the wiki and linked from a legal page or something

9:48 PM

signed sealed

9:48 PM

or what have you

Aye, a memo would have been ideal

9:49 PM

someone might yet be able to ask them for that memo they promised

Okay .. I will ask about it at some point

9:50 PM

Would be interested in helping the next secretary get up to speed? or do you just want out?

Can't give a solid answer at this point in time

k

95 e-proxies returned

woot .. we made the election ...

9:56 PM

At least we know we will have someone on the board (edited)

~20 mailed ballots in the box, probably about as many enroute

10:00 PM

however the bump from the last reminder email may be as good as it's going to get

It has always been a challenge to get 2/3rds

yup

10:16 PM

next Board may have to get creative

Can we vote to get rid of Covid-19? I mean it is 20 now ... not 19 ... seriously needs to go away

Now that's a ticket I think we can all get behind

2

wait -- so we're calculating attendance for quorum by ballots returned?

There's no in person meeting due to covid

Lowkey just sent in my vote (it said the 16th!) because I super forgot about it.

11:28 AM

Maybe post a final reminder on talk/in the FB forums that today is the cutoff?

I think it is midnight tonight

11:29 AM

votes should be counted 7pm tomorrow

11:30 AM

rumor has it that it will be televised

11:30 AM

And then the riots

Maybe post a final reminder on talk/in the FB forums that today is the cutoff?

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/2020-election-a-final-appeal-from-the-secretary/73040

11:50 AM

don't really do the freindface thing, so no idea if it made it there or not...

And then the riots

@Draco that's an awful thing to say. If you're tempted to reply with one of your "yeah, but"-s, don't. Just don't. Papering over it with "but it was a joke" is just blaming others for your bad choice.

6

Naw .. it just seems everyone needs to calm

And there's the "yeah, but"

Whatever happens we will find a way to get along

12:09 PM

No but .. we will succeed

More yeah buts

even you ... I hope

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Schrodingers%20asshole I believe that's what you're looking for.

Urban Dictionary: Schrodingers asshole

A person who decides whether or not they're full of shit by the reactions of those around them.

More yeah buts

Well I cannot help that you will not be satisfied and are judging my statement in a bad light

12:13 PM

but I can only try and help calm things down .. and bring people together or try

12:13 PM

because I feel both groups have positive things to offer

"and then the riots" Draco thinks his statement should be judged in a positive light and thinks it will help calm things down and bring people together.

@michaelb

If Art had said that .. you wouldn't be giving him any hell over it .. he says things like this all the time

12:15 PM

It is just me you are judging harshly

Art isn't in this room. Art didn't say this here. Draco thinks he can't be held accountable because "other people do it too" (edited)

but I'm not going to fight with you over this .. some people want to be offended .. even if it wasn't meant as such

And there's the yeah but

12:17 PM

Draco's self defense of choice

shakes head ... heh

some people want to be offended .. even if it wasn't meant as such

@Draco aka "the you can't take a joke" self-defense

12:19 PM

Called it. There it is.

12:19 PM

For those playing at home with their Draco Bingo cards.

1

Do you want a cookie?

I don't get it, why are riots funny?

!ballots

ERROR: @ferricyanide, invalid command. Maybe try !about.

Riots are not funny .. being real riots .. but i don't think literal riots will happen .. but either side gets an upset.. or a slam dunk as far as who is picked .. it can be upsetting and feel like that

Do you want a cookie?

@Draco "deflection move"

I can tell you, your not going to win the argument. It was a poor choice of words. Like: "You're ugly, right? Just kidding!"

Meh .. I really don't care to argue about it ... or riot either

Draco, what are your plans if none of the blue tape people get on the board?

so have a nice day

12:23 PM

peace

trots off angrily

Riots are not funny .. being real riots .. but i don't think literal riots will happen .. but either call side gets an upset.. or a slam dunk as far as who is picked .. it can be upsetting and feel like that

@Draco now makes excuses for his poor choices without apologizing

a normal response to what @stephenie is talking about would be "I'm sorry, it was in poor taste" etc

I am curious to see how long ya'll will talk about this boring subject ... I think I'm going to sit quietly now .. have fun

@aceat64 lol now now, you know normal isn't what he does

12:25 PM

he only does pedant

I am curious to see how long ya'll will talk about this boring subject ... I think I'm going to sit quietly now .. have fun

And that folks is the "cookie". You are free to enjoy this Draco-free channel.

claps

Naw .. quietly about that subject ...

And there's the yeah but. Who's got Bingo?

1

I got some clay and a box and some sharp steel

12:33 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lXbpgU9OWk

Netflix Is A Joke

How Hannah Gadsby's High-Functioning Autism Works | Netflix Is A Joke

There's no in person meeting due to covid

@pearce wasn't sure if that was in response to my question about calculating attendance for quorum by ballots returned, figured I'd ask - is that what was intended? (edited)

@slinkygn (George) yes, that's the intended mechanism for calculating attendance

Gotcha.

Wasn't interested in running an all-day election and performing the cat herding that would be needed to maintain low densities for an in-person event vis-a-vis COVID rules (edited)

Obviously doesn't matter now, but for the future, if anyone wants I can refer a few professional parliamentarians in the area (likely wouldn't want to do it myself, due to conflict of interest if I am also voting - might check the official code of ethics on that to make sure, but may err toward caution instead) - they can help come up with a way to separate attendance from voting response in a way that doesn't have to be in-person.

12:52 PM

There are a few ways to do that; they'd be able to help you pick the one that would run the easiest and people would be most comfortable with.

12:55 PM

Not that anything the org picks is or can be "wrong" - it's all fine; an organization has the fundamental right to determine its mechanisms for governance. Just something that may help in the future

12:55 PM

(and no, inconveniently none of said mechanisms are in Robert's, even if we did use it) :)

12:58 PM

Just thinking, if that separation was made it'd be a lot easier to make quorum - 2/3 is a really high bar, and any help to that is likely useful.

1

Just an observation, but the members of the previous board did not suffer through as much abuse while they were in office as the current board. There was the occasional bitching, like the time Luke posted the names of purchase agents who had not turned in outstanding receipts or reconciled accounts in a long time (I particularly remember a long tirade at Luke posted by Stan) but really small Potato stuff until February when the expansion finance hit the fan. So they got pounded for a couple of months. Then, the new board was seated, and they began getting pounded, and have continued to be pounded on a daily basis since them. And a whole lot of the pounding was coming from the likes of Kris and her cronies. Which apparently includes you, Draco. You’ve packed up your marbles and stomped off in a huff at least twice since Oct 2018 when I joined. You keep whining about the space being ruined by the current board. Well, from where i@ sitting, it looks more like Kris and her cronies F**CKed it up for the rest of us. If I heard her say “I can work with anyone” once, I heard her say it a thousand times, then out came the claws, slashing at anybody nearby that she knew wouldn’t fight back. Like Cairenn. (And kris mistreating Cairenn blew my mind, lemme tell ya. Luckily it flew over Cairenn’s head).

9

1:00 PM

But I digress. @Draco, stop with your self-serving bullshit. We aren’t buying it, regardless of the 8000 ways you try to Candy-coat it.

my sense is that bylaws need a total rewrite to handle some of these contingencies I've tried to address in my amendments, however simply making quorum is the challenge (edited)

1:04 PM

@here since it's going to come up sooner rather than later I'll address this now. Since this ... https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/disciplinary-actions-regarding-patel-and-havens/73049 https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors_Meeting_20200715_Special_Meeting ... just happened late in the election, I will be treating votes for Mark the same way that votes for Natcha were handled last year - they will be tallied and reported, but a non-member cannot be elected to the Board thus Mark Havens is disqualified as a candidate and cannot be elected to the board*. https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Bylaws#Section_2.1_Board_of_Directors
1. The Board shall consist of five (5) elected persons *who are members in good standing
and of the age of majority in the state of Texas, with no limit to the number of appointed advisers. https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Bylaws#Section_4.5_Membership_Rights_and_Privileges

1. Any regular member whose dues are paid in full, is not on probation, is not a supporting member, and who has not resigned, been suspended or has not been expelled shall be considered a member in good standing. Only members in good standing shall be entitled to the rights and privileges of full membership.

(edited)

Board of Directors Meeting 20200715 Special Meeting

Bylaws

1:06 PM

I'm not going to discuss the rightness or wrongness of the action, I'm just following the bylaws which unambiguously state that a Director must be a member in good standing, and to be a member in good standing you must not have been expelled

So you're saying we all should've voted for him for the hell of it?

2

how you vote is ultimately a personal choice

How long 'til the disciplinary hearing makes the "news" section of the 2 Blue Crew's website? I'm guessing "never"

Now I want that domain for non dms reason

4:02 PM

He could sell it to 3M

10

1

my sense is that bylaws need a total rewrite to handle some of these contingencies I've tried to address in my amendments, however simply making quorum is the challenge

@ESmith Absolutely. That's why I wanted to suggest that a professional help. It's a lot easier to make quorum if you can count something more than just the votes that came in. Entered votes is pretty much the most limited of the counts one could use, just due to the nature of voting.

5:27 PM

That may have been a little opaque and unclear. Imma give that another shot.

5:34 PM

So, a common hypothetical example we might give in a training course when we're on the voting "chapter" of training and we're trying to explain the different voting and attendance thresholds is: Say you have an organization of 200 people, and quorum at this organization is defined as 50% of the membership. You're trying to pass a bylaws amendment (coincidence that we use bylaws as an example a lot in training, btw, not meant as a reference to DMS -- it's just one of the most common 2/3 votes in most orgs). You give notice of the bylaws vote, and 100 people show up to the meeting. You hold the vote. 2 people vote yes, 1 votes no, and the other 97 decide they really don't care because it's trivial to them anyway and they don't vote (aka they abstain from voting). By that count, the motion to amend the bylaws passes.

5:36 PM

You probably knew that to be the case (though I do say, it surprises some). But from that I want to draw attention to the idea that one can "receive a ballot" in a regular meeting, not cast it, and it doesn't hurt the ability to gather quorum in the slightest. That's what the aim would be in regard to finding a workable mechanism that would make quorum easier. Some superset of "votes cast."

5:37 PM

...ugh. I read what I'm saying, and I still feel like what I'm writing is super dense and it's hard to understand how one thing relates to another. Would it help if I gave a specific example of one way that sort of thing could be done? (edited)

I'd have to re read

5:41 PM

But that sounds pretty similar to what we were doing

5:43 PM

But if I could oversimplify it, for your method If you don't use your rights it doesn't matter, you have to vote yes or no

5:43 PM

That way the apathetic people don't stagnate the place

Oh, certainly. What I described is just standard voting procedure. I don't mean that as a suggestion of what to do -- that's an "excerpt," if you will, from a hypothetical Parli Pro 101 training. I just meant that to illustrate how much easier it can be to make quorum if you try to count the bigger number than the smaller one.

5:44 PM

That's kinda what I was asking at the end, there -- if it would help to give an actual example of how that would be done.

5:44 PM

(how one would try to count the 100 votes, apathetic or not, rather than the 3 that returned them, when you don't have a physical meeting to do that in.)

5:44 PM

(see, told ya what I wrote was obtuse and hard to see the point of)

5:46 PM

100 *potential votes

5:46 PM

"in attendance"

We really do need a way to count quorum but combat the ever growing number of people who request rights but don't use them

So, there are a few ways to do that, like I mentioned - one simple way: have a, let's say, 1-2wk period prior to a major vote (as a regular process, of course, so that members knew to do this -- setting this up would be something done well in advance so people got a chance to get used to it), and that period is a "ballot request" period. Members with voting rights get emailed/mailed/whatever you like (email is fine, generally speaking but also especially so if such were to be codified in the bylaws) at the beginning of that period and asked to basically "opt-in" to receiving a ballot for the votes that will be held at the upcoming meeting.

5:52 PM

Let's say you want to allow e-voting at that meeting too, so just to have some numbers to attach to this -- 2wks ahead that's sent out for a 1wk ballot-request period. The week passes, those who requested their ballot for that upcoming meeting receive it, they have the next week to submit their vote. Those are then tallied at the meeting, with the ballots handed out counted for the quorum requirement but the ballots received and marked counted for motion pass/fail.

5:53 PM

Or tallied wherever. All that is of course up to how the folks running the meeting want to do that.

I'm not sure how our bylaws are worded exactly, but this sounds like something we should try to amend before the next election

Just one example of a method. Might not work for us, but it's one way to skin that cat. (edited)

5:54 PM

Yes, that's correct.

5:55 PM

As I mentioned, it'd have to be something established well in advance to its use -- and ideally, used at least a couple of times in "real" meetings that aren't the annual organization meeting too, for familiarity.

5:59 PM

The above example in particular has as one of its advantages the fact that it's not an overwhelmingly large process change from what we do now -- effectively, instead of sending out ballots we have folks ask for them at a designated period. A disadvantage would be that while that would add to the number "present" for quorum, it's not a huge change. Other methods can increase the number available to be counted from there, but larger effects are usually tied to more significant changes in methodology.

On a phone a few hours later, but the text of the bylaws suggests that there's no discounting abstentions or "present" or other non up/down conceits to reduce the size of the pool

6:28 PM

"a majority of those present in person or by proxy" or somesuch

lol

8:28 PM

That's better

?

I actually meant to post it somewhere else but went with it here. Hope I dont summon a demon.

A lil' hopping demon

Thats all we need for 2020, crickets that can summon demons.

2

On a phone a few hours later, but the text of the bylaws suggests that there's no discounting abstentions or "present" or other non up/down conceits to reduce the size of the pool

@ESmith It's not reducing the size of the pool. It's allowing abstentions to stand as abstentions, and if there's no language regarding abstentions it is the standard accepted practice for holding votes. Goes the other way -- there actually has to be language somewhere to not do it that way. There's no such thing as "discounting abstentions" -- an abstention is literally abstaining from voting. It is not a yea and not a nay.

9:10 PM

So the sample scenario I gave of the 200 members, 100 attend, 2 yea, 1 nay, vote carries -- that's not a rules change; that's the default method of holding a vote even in the absence of any rules on voting at all. To do it differently it would have to be defined as such somewhere.

9:11 PM

But you're right in that if the bylaws state any change in or different standard for counting a vote, they would take precedence.

ugh

9:12 PM

make it stop

?

OK, propose to the next Board because I'm pretty much out after tomorrow

so the question is how do we get the changes put into the bylaws with the way they are currently written

Oh, hey. Okay, got the "make it stop."

9:13 PM

Let me back up.

9:13 PM

You're doing everything fine.

because we have tried for two years and failed to get the 2/3rds

1

At least as far as I know, and I have no reason to think otherwise. I'm not trying to criticize.

9:14 PM

I think I mentioned before -- an organization has every right to determine how it's managed, and that includes how a vote is taken. You're totally good.

I'm not upset with you, just ready to retire per se

I was definitely talking about future stuff, if we want.

Nor do I wish to discourage

Understood.

Just wanted to make sure I wasn't coming across as giving guff. I get that stuff is kind of tense; definitely don't want to add to that. I'm sorry if I did.

1

between the way director elections work and how the ballot is working out, the only way abstentions change the math on bylaws changes are if someone never touches a specific amendment proposal

12:28 AM

which some have, but precious few

By abstentions do you mean people who have voting rights but don't turn in a ballot, or people who don't have voting rights but could?

8:08 AM

I thought the primary problem we were talking about is that we can't make the 2/3 quorum - which would, I'm sure, be much easier if we had a way to count people with voting rights but that don't turn in a ballot as still "attending the meeting" but abstaining from the vote.

8:08 AM

One of the 100 in attendance when you get the two yeas and one nay, to put it another way.

By abstentions do you mean people who have voting rights but don't turn in a ballot,

(edited)

8:22 AM

this (edited)

For / Against / Abstain

8:23 AM

The latter category

many edits later

A quorum is the minimum number of members of a deliberative assembly (a body that uses parliamentary procedure, such as a legislature) necessary to conduct the business of that group. According to Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, the "requirement for a quorum is protection against totally unrepresentative action in the name of the body by an unduly small number of persons."

(edited)

@stephenie appears schrodingers asshole has returned!

9:00 AM

One still does have to wonder what @Draco will do if no blue tape is voted in. I'm considering a pool. Odds yet to be determined

I feel like Kevin is the only one with a shot of getting in, but he's also the most conflicted. If he gets in he will have a significant conflict of interest with running his business out of dms

1

And getting paid for DMS volunteer efforts

Do the rules allow for purging the voting member rolls 60 days before an election and posting notice that anyone who intends to vote needs to request voting rights?

9:45 AM

that could help achieve quorum, with the downside of appearing to be "voter suppression"

the bylaws leave it up to the standing rules for determining that stuff, so the rules could be modified to do that

maybe rather than 60 days before, make it immediately after elections; give people longer to register, establish it as a well known timing

9:58 AM

I was talking with someone last night that still hadn't voted because they don't understand that if they're registered it takes away from quorum

I wish we could change the names of the membership statuses.. Call the 90- day rule members “new members”. Instead of “Sustaining member”, that becomes the “Regular Member.” If they choose the register for voting option, they become “regular member + voting”.

we could, just requires a bylaws change lol

10:06 AM

maybe next year

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium the purge following voting thing was what was done (whenever that was, 2016?) and then determined to be unacceptable (can't recall exactly why, but something I considered semantic)

@A. Spencer(jast) Here is a Talk thread about it ... https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/free-the-dms-five/11357

Maybe purge voting members who didn't vote in the last election. I can see the potential issue with purging all voting members, then a small group with voting rights could assert control.

OK, propose to the next Board because I'm pretty much out after tomorrow

@ESmith Congratulations sir. Job very well done. I think back to the previous 2 secretaries by way of comparison.

1

Thanks, however I feel like Luke deserves some credit for making the best of the situation he was in

3

Yes @lukeiamyourfather did excellent!

Yes many bullets whizzed by overhead.

Is there anyone who would make a good secretary and wants to do it?

May have to lower your bar, is there anyone who wants to do it?

5

depending on how low you are willing to lower the bar.....

Thummel level low?

Yeah... No

Okay then, Mary level low?

Still too low

Erik raised the bar far beyond where we’re accustomed.

2

This is like the guy at the price is right who guesses $1

2

2:06 PM

We need at least a $10 secretary

I'm considering it depending on who ends up on the board. $9.98?

2

I thought you’d consider treasurer. Again.

Erik SMASHES the volunteer secretary curve

3

No the treasurer position is in much more capable hands.

(shhhhhhh don't scare him off)

So you think new board will stray from y'all's strategy of "officers separate from board"? I assumed the forensic accountant would want to downsize his job responsibilities.

Walter Anderson would have loved this election cycle.

He

He was a class in and of himself. Miss that old coot

By abstentions do you mean people who have voting rights but don't turn in a ballot, this

@pearce Then, yes, changing how quorum is counted for a particular meeting definitely can change the math for how many votes are needed. Again, a number of ways of doing that, with pros and cons both in how hard they are to enact and how effective they are once enacted. That's a long and complex enough conversation where it likely doesn't lend itself well to a Talk channel, I'd imagine.

4:09 PM

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium the purge following voting thing was what was done (whenever that was, 2016?) and then determined to be unacceptable (can't recall exactly why, but something I considered semantic)

@A. Spencer(jast) Think it was done both in 2016 and 2017, now that I read that thread. (Then again, I only made it through the first 20 or so posts before my brain started to hurt... I just happen to know it was done in 2017 too because I dug up the confirmation that I registered again to vote right after the 2017 election.)

Just once

Reset the voting rights.... quick while there is only 6 people ... remove the new board

.... That's a joke, right?

the board has to call the meeting...

It is an example that could might happen if there are very few people with voting rights

6:15 PM

not an example of what I want

I'm confused

I'm curious where the idea of "voting rights" comes from.

That's his example of the tyranny that would happen

The bylaws only distinguish full members in good standing

6:16 PM

and explicitly state that all such have the same rights...

It takes 2/3 quorum of people with voting rights. So if their are 6 people that have voting rights .. it takes 4 to vote to change the bylaws or remove a board member

Are you talking about purging the voting rights after elections? Seems fine to me.

but what makes you think anyone needs to be granted voting rights

6:17 PM

the bylaws don't mention such a thing

Right but.... There aren't? Sooooo....

After you clear them... there would be

Why would there be six and not zero?

Gonna pause this

I'm giving an example .. could be any number of people that first sign up after the reset and schedule a meeting and take a new vote (edited)

K

@Draco wtf are you talking about with havens being removed from the eproxy

6:18 PM

Prove it

@ESmith ... Do you modify the e-proxy and remove Mark Havens as an option after he was expelled?

6:20 PM

easier to get it from him .. I'm sure he will tell you

I didn't know the system could do that...huh

he already said those votes will be counted

Not if they aren't avaliable to be checked

There you go not answering questions

6:21 PM

On what grounds are you making your statement

Can't. Once something is sent with DocuSign it can't be modified without individually changing each one, and everyone would get notifications to the modifications

They will be though. You're thinking too much about hypotheticals.

People have been contacting Mark asking why they cannot vote for him in the e-Proxy and that it says that Mark was Expelled in the new e-proxy

I think you should remove your post from talk unless you can prove it with hard evidence

there's definitely an argument he should be removed as a voting option

6:24 PM

"Election of the Board of Directors shall be first by nomination, and then by final vote."

6:24 PM

"Only members in good standing shall elect or be elected to the Board of Directors."

6:24 PM

So his nomination is invalid

Some people apparently want to cast a protest vote.

We can't sproinks

yeah this is all pedanticism

Same reason nacho got votes last year, he dropped out after it got posted

Draco were you able to get in touch with anyone who experienced the issue?

Doing so right now ..

6:26 PM

they should have a copy of the proxy they sent in their email

And Draco changing his statement to "saying the eproxy says he has been expelled" is different from his statement previously

6:27 PM

Of "removed from the eproxy"

No .. it was not allowed to be checked

Well he can't be elected either. Due to his own actions

6:28 PM

Still waiting on proof

I'm contacting the indviduals

Is this based on yet another video Mark released to YouTube and his personal LinkedIn about an hour ago?

yes

oh boy, my soaps are on!

3

He's got till I beat up this team rocket grunt before I flag him for it

For what?

6:37 PM

Oh, nvm.

Apparently we are all non wealthy unsuccessful “nerds” who have no real power in our personal jobs.

6

Mark's wealthy?

I mean, what are you the CEO of?

I'm the CEO of Me, which is a fortune 500 Haley.

2

3

I'm definitely less successful than mark the failed drug dealer...

1

Apparently we are all non wealthy unsuccessful “nerds” who have no real power in our personal jobs.

@Apparently_Weird excuse me "non wealthy successful "nerd" myself thank you very much.

I'll have you know I have C&D's from sanrio DC comics and Fox. I'd think I pushed enough buttons as a business

3

Where is the vote counting going to be streamed?

6:42 PM

Or is it?

Evidence

I mean I got my last 4 jobs through the makerspace directly.

@Draco show your work

Last 2 jobs, same

@pearce ... I told you I'm contacting the individuals that have it

6:43 PM

You will have to wait

give @Draco a minute, that's fair

Gotta spool up Photoshop and premiere I guess

3

@themitch22 that was comment from one of Mark’s anonymous supports that “he couldn’t have said it better himself”

1

I've got no idea what Draco is pouting about but lifes better that way

I'm dissapointed that Ryan interviewed in one of his videos

I’ve gotten some outside gigs via Makerspace but no job.

I'm just going to jump back in this unsuccessful swimming pool

haha

6:45 PM

sounds nice

Kevin made $6900 off the Makerspace from the city of mesquite

I've got no idea what Draco is pouting about but lifes better that way

@quattroquattro seriously made for better reading

Oh my god it must be so nice right now for people who have backyard pools. No way I'm swimming in the one at my apartments.

btw no real power in our personal jobs, we have 220 and 480v 3phase actually I think 1000kw breaker

1

That thing where the DMS was supposed to be making fence board for a park? Kev got paid for it

Was that only for the kids park or is the Veterans memorial part of that?

It is especially with this unsuccessful sangria to follow up on the unsuccessful brisket that was smoked for 16 unsuccessful hours in an unsuccessful big green egg

6:47 PM

@pearce about 7k

@quattroquattro keep that up, and I'll be forced to put you on ignore!

1

Anyone want to build an unsuccessful nerd Ikea kallax shelf for me?

wait, is the ikea kallax nerdy, or you?

6:49 PM

I'm confused

@pearce at the time, all PR knew was DMS was donating to fund the park. As a side gig, potentially because of that donation, Kevin was paid to make all the fence posts. From that he also is getting paid for the veterans memorial.

@themitch22 I dooooo ;_; I miss you guys

@Toenolla the worst twitch stream idea ever, building ikea furniture sober.

Do it!

Miss you guys too!

Don't even need twitch, do it here

>> I watched LRR stream building Ikea shelves.... >>

3

1

6:51 PM

Unsuccessful

The whole time he was doing it he was presenting it as a DMS project

2

If we are going to do this, can we do it where we all talk at the same time, giving Mitch different directions and arguing amongst ourselves about how he is messing up?

couch commentary?

totally

6:52 PM

I'll do my best impression of Mark defending himself to those comments

@quattroquattro Wait, how is that unsuccessful?

6:52 PM

@Apparently_Weird Wouldn't that be the point?

Well Draco and Mark are of the opinion we are unsuccessful

Aaaah

6:53 PM

woosh

Let's move food to off topic

So I just figured he knows everything and has all the answers

@sky-spook from the latest Haven video > Apparently we are all non wealthy unsuccessful “nerds” who have no real power in our personal jobs. @Apparently_Weird

Yea, I have no desire to watch the video after the last ones

nah, this is where Draco will randomly distance when Mark says stupid things

2

Guess whatever story he needs to tell to make sense in his world view

No ikea streaming, the living room is a mess (reason why I'm building this shelf) and I know nobody at DMS has a messy apartment...

Hey.. I’m a homeowner now.

9

there's a reason I only have a dedicated streaming cam on my workbench, so you can only see a 36" square

6:56 PM

@Apparently_Weird congrats!!

@sky-spook from the latest Haven video > Apparently we are all non wealthy unsuccessful “nerds” who have no real power in our personal jobs. @Apparently_Weird

@Apparently_Weird Methinks he doth project too much

3

you only need one piece of furniture

Until the movers show up on Thursday... lol

Home ownership is fun. And not fun. And then fun again

it's only fun if you have the time and money to fix everythign when it explodes

Trying to catch up on all the security I never really needed to know.. to implement the home life I want... lol

I wish home builders would build a house with a bigger garage than the house part

1

Only on custom builds

but if a 4x8' CNC can double as a dining room table, I'm game

@themitch22 it's hard to find something like that close to anything, but I found something that will work and jumped on it

7:01 PM

one of the houses we considered for a bit was in "Copper Canyon" and had a bricked 2 story workshop. The commute would have killed my joy for life though.

who knew we would all be working remotely because of a airborne virus

7:02 PM

well some of us

yeah, the commute is not an issue now...hehe

7:03 PM

bought this house Jan 30th, so just a little too soon...hehe

I got another 30 years to pay off my loans before I looking at a house

7:04 PM

by then there will be plenty of real estate open

I thought so too, but LGI got us into a very unsuccessful house for effectively what we were paying in rent.

but what do I know, I have no power at my personal job

1

7:06 PM

that's good to hear, I do like living in the city and neat DMS but at this rate only places affordable will be near waco or near texoma

1

@themitch22 theres some affordable stuff out by tyler

in 30 years I am not even sure I'll be alive, so might as well make it work while I can

7:11 PM

yeah but I feel like if I lived that far from here, I would lose touch with everyone even though I only talk to you guys on discord

7:12 PM

the big draw of the city is being able to go meet people in a short drive, you have more places to shop than "the walmarts"

7:12 PM

I've driven enough for work to know I would hate living in BFE Texas

7:13 PM

Mckinney/Melissa would be ok, Maybe Rockwall, but Carrolton/Farmers Branch even the old 70's houses at $300-400k

BFE Crowley has multiple Walmart’s nearby, HEB, Kroger etc. just takes 20 minutes sometimes one way. Lol

Covid is showing me that I could pretty much live anywhere. It's not like I would hang out with unsuccessful nerds anyway

It's why I opted to get an apartment close to work when first moving here. I may move out somewhere else eventually, but it was also coincidentally close to DMS

Only reason I'm living in Farmers Branch is because of DMS

7:16 PM

so if you guys screw this place up, I have to move

My job has basically told us it's very unlikely people will work in our building ever again. They've wanted to do the remote thing for a while and this was the nudge that will make it stick.

I'm noticing a lot of that going around

must be nice

7:18 PM

until I can fully automate a factory, no way I'm going to be able to work remotely in my life.

I’ve been told it’s unlikely my data team will return this year. Thank goodness for fiber optic

My place isn't doing that, but they aren't making us go back either since numbers are still crap.

in some ways it's nice, but I miss the people I work with etc. I'm sure when the bullshit ends, we'll do lunch etc. sometimes

1

I have my cats as coworkers. Make just as much sense sometimes.

Lazy coworkers

I went to lunch every day with a guy from Mansfield (office is in Richardson). I feel like the odds of ever eating lunch with him regularly again are about zero...hehe

holy crap that's rough

7:19 PM

Mansfield is already rough, but the commute doesn't make it better

7:19 PM

sorry people from Mansfield but they already know

there's no way he drives that far just to eat lunch...hehe

Why not? I have. But I’m apparently weird. Lol

2

When I would drive from fort worth to DMS every day, if I didn't work on something it was basically to hang out and eat

7:21 PM

That's when i could stay at DMS until 6-8am, take a nap in the lounge area, then drive back to go to work at 2pm

7:24 PM

So when do we hear the results of the eleection?

7:24 PM

it's going on now

Sometime between now and Monday.

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Annual_Member_Meeting_20200717

Annual Member Meeting 20200717

7:42 PM

updating intermittently

7:44 PM

livestream didn't work, however there's a 360 camera recording

Thanks youtube...

Thank you. @ESmith very much appreciate all you do.

I'm clipboarding at this point

count underway

8:07 PM

Ugh, 2 short for bylaws?

8:08 PM

Killing me y'all

yup

The reset after election seems a good idea, have everyone sign up to vote again.

Or something like it

8:10 PM

Then get a bylaw to only count those that actually bothered to vote

Yes

ugh so we can continue to have felons on the board, or we are just not going to check before electing them in the future?

8:15 PM

but yeah it's sad how low the turnout was.

I'm really in favor of use it or lose it. You didn't vote yes/no/abstain this round and you are out unless you request rights again

1

Would like to see this implemented at beginning of next term rather than discussed at elections like we have as an organization for quite a few elections now.

3

4

Lol

Congrats:)

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Annual_Member_Meeting_20200717#Results

Annual Member Meeting 20200717

Curtis Baker : 87 Jim Hartnett : 87

9:33 PM

Who is the board member?

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors#Previous_Board_Members

Board of Directors

9:33 PM

Reading makes life easier

1

k

9:34 PM

Due to the tie for 5th place and lack of a mechanism in the bylaws to resolve ties the Secretary opted for a game of chance was arranged with two die cast for the 5th seat. A 12 was cast for Curtis Baker, a 9 was cast for Jim Hartnett, thus Curtis Baker was declared winner.

Tada

9:37 PM

You figured it out

Man, that was tight. Respect for figuring out a fair way to break it.

Love the dice roll idea lol

9:55 PM

Board of directors, chosen by fair dice roll

3

Yep. 4.

@Lavarocks run Forrest

1

!random

@Skyspook: 4

Doesn't seem random

@aceat64, I disagree: https://xkcd.com/221/

xkcd: Random Number

I rather a skill based challenge, like hand soldering a 0204 smd

How about that Mario party tracing game, but instead using the plasma table joystick

Well at least we know no one got disenfranchised in the election, since even double the votes wouldn't have helped Mark

Lololol

Really great job organizing and administering the election @ESmith ! Thank you for all your hard work!

9

7

5

Glad to see this to completion

11

5

Oof... What a stressful election. I'm so glad it's over.

6

@ESmith you have earned your rest. Thank you for carrying us this far.

9

4

1

I think there's a huge opportunity to heal the broken relationships at the space by changing the way we communicate and work together (primarily talking about myself here). I think I can do this, and I think I will grow as a person because of it. I think it's going to be extremely valuable to me. I hope that it will be valuable to others. It will certainly be a challenge, but I'm not one to shy away from a challenge once I frame it properly. I think I stand to gain a lot. I'm tired of being stressed out.

1

Then stop contributing to the bullshit. You were such a huge portion of the stress.

4

Absolutely (edited)

1

11:13 PM

One of my goals is to stop contributing to the bullshit. I know that I have. I want to focus on building and healing. I think this is an area where I have a lot of room to grow.

5

2

Glad to have completed the final deliverable

11

11:15 PM

I had a lot of help

9

And back to the usual nickname

If you add your meat space name people might spell it right

12:19 AM

(this was a lie and pearce knew it)

It's been a while since I've seen a talk post asking to meet up with 'pierce' now that I think about it.

I have suspicions that one will pop up soon

we had one a couple weeks ago

12:36 AM

re: tow stickers

All I know is that I've heard a lot of bad things about some guys named Eric and Pierce

12:40 AM

And some dude with a nose ring

I hear Pierce has no facial hair

lol

Wonder if Eric and pierce hang out with that guy with blue hair and nose ring....

1

1:01 AM

To old board: thank you for your service. To new board....im soo soooooo sorry....

1:02 AM

To those who didn't make it: lucky bastards.

3

good thing Eric is some other guy

@Draco any update to your harassing talk post about the former secretary modifying the ballots mid stream?

1

I was told to give him time for that evidence to come up

10:34 AM

Still waiting

When he realizes they weren't telling him the truth I'm sure he'll apologize for spreading conspiracy junk and feeding into ever more drama

3

10:40 AM

16 hours and counting

Y'all gonna be waiting a while for him to come up with facts.

Maybe it would be easier for literally anyone else to send a screen shot of their DocuSign showing Havens on the ballot, since no one else who is claiming he wasn't on there will show theirs

Why even bother? Only a minority believe this crap, and I don't think he's about to break his well established record of not doing anything about it.

LOL

10:53 AM

dagron has a terrible track record for factual info

11:01 AM

Contrast those two statements.

dagron still can't admit he had bad info

How many paper proxies were received in the end vs electronic?

When Draco's friends are the source, he states as fact; he doesn't wait for screenshots; 100% trust. When non-friend sources present facts, Draco uses "I believe" and "however" + plus needs more info. (edited)

3

The best part of waking up, is realizing I muted him and never had to witness it.

So true

Classic "feelings as facts" trait

The ol' i dont like the factual truths being presented to me, so i will sow the seeds of doubt (edited)

I think it was something like ~50 paper ballots

48 mailed proxies

11:14 AM

If only there had been 50

4

Lol

I should have done e-voting. I sent paper and have this paranoid worry that it was lost.

Same. I did paper and the back of my mind tells me it won't be there till monday.

Ken and I both counted your ballots, @Axeonos & @Sinless. (I also opened every mailed ballot received and wrote the name on the envelope, then alphabetized the envelopes for Erik.)

4

1

1:18 PM

That’s not to say I memorized every mailed ballot. I just noticed names I recognized here and there and they stuck to my conscious. Whereas when I get in my car in a bit to run an errand, I won’t remember what that errand was.

There aren't enough thank yous to adequately express our gratitude to the team that counted the votes - during a pandemic - wearing masks - in an enclosed room - while somehow keeping 6+ feet apart.

12

1:23 PM

We don't deserve you

Man, my birthday made for perfect timing for me to avoid any election drama :) happy birthday to me!

3

8:51 AM

For the record: I was in the very last batch of DocuSign ballots. Mark was indeed still on my ballot.

2

8:52 AM

Reading back seemed to imply it may have not been 100% settled (99?). If I'm late to the party and it's already ironclad, my bad. If not, hope that helps.

3

Thanks for noting that the ballots were not changed for you. BTW, or in anyway for anyone. In the end Mark came in last place and had zero chance of making it onto the board. I know the voters saw the cringe worthy dialogues and voted for people that are going to carry DMS forward. Not to say that we cannot rally for the good ideas/items that all candidates brought up.

I have the impression it's already settled, and I'm not expecting Draco to return to it. I personally would like to remove the statement altogether, rather than just having it hidden, and I personally am hoping Draco will do the Right Thing ™ and make that edit. As a mod...I'm still considering doing it for him, but I would need to confer with the team, and haven't taken the time... Even hidden, that assertion is damaging, in my opinion (and, if Mods could just cast flags, I would have, but they have limited options once posts are hidden/flagged and none fit my desire in this case) tl;dr: I think it's "resolved" because we believe Erik when he says he did not make any changes. (also, Justin and AndrewL when they say all the ways DocuSign prevents that, and DocuSign, who says it wasn't changed, and let's face it, that's kind of their bread&butter)

Was this on Talk, I guess?

If Draco won't remove the damaging statement, would the mods consider a Talk time out? @A. Spencer(jast) (edited)

1

tl;dr: I think it's "resolved" because we believe Erik when he says he did not make any changes.

@A. Spencer(jast) Everyone that voted electronically received a copy of their ballot as they completed it since DocuSign is serious about providing documents as signed to all parties. I don't even have the software to edit PDFs, thus Judy's underlying document is what I used. Once I got the form populated with the checkboxes and fields I used the same form for all proxies. My goal was to deliver the voter's intent to the polls regardless of how they voted.

3

So as far as DocuSign is concerned, it was basically like a single contract with 100 or whatnot parties?

@slinkygn (George) yes, the screencaps from Stephenie are Talk.

(miiiight be taking notes in case this method is useful for a client in the future) :)

my cynical take - I don't think much anyone believes it and frankly I lose no sleep whatsoever if Draco would rather save face than maintain whatever credibility he may have had

Good on you, Erik.

10:03 AM

And truly, me neither, except... the "let's all just heal" crowd (formerly the bluetape crowd) foments discord while saying they're not by leaving this kind of "easter egg" for future lookyloos to stumble upon and dredge back up.

3

So as far as DocuSign is concerned, it was basically like a single contract with 100 or whatnot parties?

@slinkygn (George) Basically. I used a PDF as a template, overlaid some fields to be populated via a CSV file, then generated a CSV file with the same values and bulk sent. I get a copy as signed as does the signer. there are more involved workflows available, but that's the most basic one.

@stephenie personally, I don't see a timeout as helpful at this point; he's largely disappeared, so it's just the contrail that concerns me

Understood

but we'll see what next week brings...

1

@slinkygn (George) I will say that DocuSign has an uncanny valley that I was stuck in the middle of - their semi-automation is horrible to the point that it's almost broken - they'd rather you do simple single doument transmission or use an API

Erik did an amazing job (can't be said enough) and you mods have thankless job.

Erik did do amazing work in his 1+ year (this round, not to discount the amazing work he did on prior tours of duty) and he and @judy Kriehn truly, with this election, over the moon.

Gotcha. 100-ish documents ends up falling right in the middle where you're either handling every doc push individually or essentially coding a solution that would take just as long to write and debug.

10:09 AM

That is definitely a strike.

10:09 AM

Odd that they wouldn't have something to fill that middle use case - you'd think something as simple as a spreadsheet-like bulk form would help that.

10:10 AM

I suppose that's not a range they deal with a lot.

They do have a solution, but it's buggy and the workarounds are almost superstitious

1

10:17 AM

Using both Chrome and Edge I had to do two absolutely bizarre things to make it work: 1. Set a manual recipient as "Bulk Recipient" / bulk@recipient.com 2. Prior to importing the CSV, save as draft then resume draft, otherwise it will never actually load the CSV

That is pretty weird!

Whoa, that is janky

their support suggested some other superstitious workaround that didn't work and pointed me to their support page that was clearly out of date relative to the current UI

Working on a elections history page for the wiki, can anyone put eyes on this and complete any missing info, namely 2016.

DMS Board of Directors Election History


2011
 
Total Votes Cast    23

Candidate        Votes
Andrew LeCody        22
Peter Smith        16
Nicole Greeley        10
Leland Flynn        10
Alyssa Pipe        9

----

Jonathan Shook        8
Mark Havens        7
Paul Wilson        5
Alan Hatchett        5
Gus Reiter        4
Doug Emes        4
Ben Bangerter        4
Steven Reeves        4
Shona Haskins        3
Bryan Smith        2



2012


Total Votes Cast    43  

Candidate        Votes
Nicole Greeley        40
Andrew LeCody        39
John Haskins        36
Peter Smith        33
Robert Davidson        23

----

Philip Wrage        21
Bryan Martin        17



2013


Total Votes Cast    45  

Candidate        Votes
Andrew LeCody        39
Paul Brown        33
john a. gorman        25
Peter Smith        23
Robert Davidson        22

----

Andrew Falgout        18
Kent Bowling        18
Greg Needel        14
Mike Eber        12
Romeo Espana        12
Nick Sainz        7

(edited)

8:18 PM

Total Votes Cast    53  

Candidate        Votes
Pearce Dunlap        47
Andrew LeCody        45
Benjamin Groves        44
Robert Davidson        36
Andrew Falgout        29

----

john a. gorman        27
Alex Rhodes        22


2015


Total Votes Cast    66  

Candidate        Votes
Alex Rhodes        44
Benjamin Groves        44
Robert Davidson        41
Andrew LeCody        40
Kent Bowling        35

----

Pearce Dunlap        32
Allen Wan        31
Krissy Heishman        24
Luke Olson        21
Nick Sainz        11



2016

Total Votes Cast    NN 

Alex Rhodes        NN
Erik Smith        NN
Ken Purcell        NN
Luke Olson        NN    
Robert Davidson        NN

----

Other Candidates?


2017


Total Votes Cast    135  


Candidate        Votes
Alex Rhodes        91
David Kessinger        90
Kris Anderson        88
Robert Davidson        70
Mitch Cerroni        64

----

Steve Blanchard        61
Brian Davis        60
Luke Olson        50
Walter Anderson        48
David Guill        31



2018

Total Votes Cast    135


Candidate        Votes
Kris Anderson        127
David Kessinger        111
Luke Strickland        110
Chuck Baber        98
Steve Blanchard        93

----

Haley Moore        78
Adam Oas        77
Eric Harter        56
Allen Wan        28

8:19 PM

Candidate        Votes
Julie Harris        120
James Henningson    113
Marshall Blatz        94
Scott Blevins        84
Ken Purcell        75

----

Paul Wilson        71
Steve Blanchard        57
Allen Wan        39
Adnan Chahbandar    38
Charles Proctor        29
Natcha Pradappet    13
Troy Barrios    11


2020

Total Votes Cast    186  

Candidate        Votes
Julie Harris        138
James Henningson    129
Brad Sims        124
Justin Walker        100
Curtis Baker        87 *

----

Jim Hartnett        87 *
Patrick Thompson    65
Joe King        50
Kevin Patel        38
Max Kirkland        38
Mark Havens        31

* Due to the tie for 5th place and lack of a mechanism in the bylaws to resolve ties - and with the consensus of all present - the Secretary opted for a game of chance with two die cast for each contestant for the 5th seat. A 12 was cast for Curtis Baker, a 9 was cast for Jim Hartnett, thus Curtis Baker was declared winner.

Did "2019 Total Votes Cast #" get truncated? dont see it

yep sorry

Total Votes Cast    159

Candidate        Votes
Julie Harris        120
James Henningson    113
Marshall Blatz        94
Scott Blevins        84
Ken Purcell        75

----

Paul Wilson        71
Steve Blanchard        57
Allen Wan        39
Adnan Chahbandar    38
Charles Proctor        29
Natcha Pradappet    13
Troy Barrios    11

8:25 PM

Should have just attached the file instead of pasting such a large block of text.

DMS-Election-History.txt

2.55 KB

@Lampy (Ken Purcell) I wasn't a board member in 2017, but thanks for getting my hopes up.

8:43 PM

Dodged that bullet twice by a few votes

2

1

I think you're missing physical votes. Not sure where that breakdown is though.

those don't count

9:06 PM

haha I'm sure slept well in my own bed. I barely remember running for the board actually. The good ol' days

9:06 PM

I'm glad Krissy ran, I wish she got it.

I forgot that year we had a mix of online and paper proxy votes. Sorry Mitch, next time!

10:29 AM

Updated version

DMS-Election-History.txt

2.56 KB

Haha no next time

Smartest person in the room!

2

Aww! I see my name! Haha.

I'm sure I'll get roasted for this, but... Has there been, or will there be, any "changing of the guard" ceremonies for the Board? I've been trying to figure out when the actual hand off was going to happen, expecting the usual BoD ceremonial meeting, but none has been announced so far as I know. It appears the wiki list for BoD was unceremoniously changed, so I'm guessing it's done, and the answer to my query is "no"...

I'm sure we've discussed this, but BoD handoffs - if they happen - are purely ceremonial. And there can be value in such.

as I think I've stated in relation to other such ceremonies, if not the BoD specifically, the ceremony is vital to the health of the organization, so I'm bitterly disappointed if we've chosen to forgo all efforts this round. I take it you believe the ceremony this time is not happening, and the handoff occurred commensurate with the votes being tallied? So, then, I guess Talk Titles and the like need altered? (I'm hesitant to engage Erik in this convo, because I know he's not involved but at the moment, he's responding, and likely in the know, so...

‍♂️

Curt and I chatted with the rest of the board and the outgoing members earlier this week. I figured we'd do titles and whatnot eventually.

11:41 PM

*Curtis, my apologies :)

I'll scowl annoyedly that people who aren't Directors (until the ceremony, as far as I'm concerned) act like they're directors while Directors act like they're just common members.

Living in ignorance myself

3

11:44 PM

my board's attempt at a handoff was met with ill-concealed contempt by our successors, so we skipped out on the meeting itself seemingly to the annoyance of some of the new directors (edited)

1

11:46 PM

anyway I don't disagree that they're beneficial to the community

so covid fucked up some of this

however the legal reality is that as soon as the election is concluded, the old batch is out and the new is in

when the board was haned over to my board we had a real meeting with like 8 board members, they called a meeting, handed over, and then we ran it from there

11:47 PM

but that doesnt really work right now

I mean, I edited myself out of the Secretary title on Talk pretty promptly after resigning and also noticed that my permissions in the BoD category disappeared soon after - as was appropriate

2

well, yeah, because nobody but me want this to happen, I guess. I may be alone on my island, but I'll defend my opinion into the ground: people get confused when there is no ceremony. The symbolic changing of the guard, passing of the flag, handoff of the baton needs to be done so that we can all be on the same page about what the organization is doing and where we all are in the process. Otherwise, we're all just guessing, and hoping our understand of the situation is right. These delineations are absolutely vital to the health of the organization, especially if we want to have any kind of zeitgeist (and we do). Without this kind of pomp and circumstance, there is not tone, no expectation, no cultural cohesion. alright. Stump rightfully stood upon. I'll shove off now, until I have the same bitch about the committee chairs being nonchalantly "mehed" from one occupant to another in a week or two, leaving all of us mere mortals in the lurch, wondering just who in the fuck is in charge of what. I'll go change titles in Talk (probably tomorrow, unless someone else beats me to it) but I don't have the necessary access to change group memberships, so "@board_of_directors" will still be whomever it is right now (no idea if it's right or wrong; I can't see it). Thank you for weighing in and helping me get on the right page.

people get confused when there is no ceremony

I agree. Express it in written communication all you want, seeing the new people without visual transfer is jarring.

Honestly, it hasn't even been communicated in writing.

11:56 PM

it's been implied

11:56 PM

and as you state, is implicit in the vote being finalized

11:56 PM

but that's still implied

Talk, the wiki as the source of truth

1

11:57 PM

laugh if you want, but the wiki is the final word on many things

Sure -- but you did mention two sources there...

on that front...does anyone know how to edit thoe pages you protected?

the handful of wiki admins

11:58 PM

I presumably still have that permission. I've indicated to our presumptive Secretary I'll help with some wiki functions.

And in agreeing with the point y'all are making, even communicated in writing isn't quite the same as expressed visually and physically.

11:58 PM

(leaving aside that the wiki is a pull, not a push, content source.)

ah. no idea who those might be. I hope one of them is working when the new not quite "the" secretary is named... (edited)

appears I still have the rights

1

80% sure those never, ever, get changed...you're always in. Like being a Marine, I think...

fairly certain that Andrew LeCody still has permissions

he did once, ergo...

I probably do

well, yeah, because nobody but me want this to happen, I guess. I may be alone on my island, but I'll defend my opinion into the ground: people get confused when there is no ceremony.

@A. Spencer(jast) But on a positive note, Brad has got the agenda started for the Aug 5 board meeting.

1

We did have a google meet after the election results were posted. After that we bowed out of the meeting and the new board continued in the meeting. I assumed that we would show up (or appear on the next google meeting) for the ceremonial part of the handoff on August 6th. Along with the officializing of the new chairs and some officers.

1

I was unaware of the meet that did happen and I don't see the handoff in the agenda, so assumed it was not going to happen. I think that'd be great way to get it done, and would support that 100% (and hopefully be able to "be there").

It was just a casual meeting so I doubt there are minutes. Looks like the next meeting on https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors_Meeting_20200806 will be the ceremonial handoff.

Board of Directors Meeting 20200806

hm. nothing on there about BoD changing seats. although the officer naming IS on there... you're a glutton for punishment, eh?

1:22 PM

Thank you for volunteering. I hope you can ease our addiction to Erik's secsause.

Erik is the master, we will see if this grasshopper can snatch the pebble from his hand.

3

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/smu-cox-free-webinar-tomorrow-leading-change-in-volatile-times/73546

2

wow. I haven't checked my DMS email for days.

Good for you!

9:40 AM

now, highlight and...delete

You know that feeling when you quit or get fired from a job that was stressing you out, is that how it feels?

sort of

Liberation is a wonderful thing.

Joy. Oaklahoma Box dude is threatening a class action lawsuit against DMS on Facebook

in my experience, no one threatens to sue and then actually sues

He keeps saying that but hasn't

I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that's not how class action lawsuits work. I would assume he needs more than 2 butthurt people to form a class action.

1

he could get Marks pseudo lawyer expertise

you need about 40 or more

Plus generally when you see a class action it's for a common issue, like faulty airbags or some shit. Each person he claims to represent was kicked out for different reasons.

pretty sure legit reasons people were permabanned isn't going to hold up in court if that's why he wants to sue

2

If we kick out 40 people for threatening to shoot us for pulling out of a race due to covid-19 then he still wouldn't have a case because that's a valid reason to kick someone out...

In my experience plenty of people threaten to sue and then do, just the successful ones usually just sue with no warning.

10:31 PM

Though i would say most that threaten it don't actually follow through

when I worked tech support we got a lot of people who thought threatening a lawsuit would somehow get them free stuff or faster service

11:03 PM

turns out none of them ever sued over their $100/mo hosting contract lol

neverminding the legalities of trying to sue DMS - the damages aren't worth litigating

8:28 AM

access to the facility is your main benefit and that's worth $50 - $60 a month; with most members on monthly the total damage is ... $50-$60. Tenfold that amount for annual members. even with the possibility of a treble damages claim that's still markedly less than most lawyers will work for.

8:32 AM

if you're foolish enough to run your business from DMS you might feel like you've lost something dear - such as your livelihood - but being expelled from DMS is not the same as a landlord kicking you out of your rented workshop despite being current on rent.

1

8:34 AM

the legal threshold for being expelled is pretty low as well - a finding of the Board of Directors

8:36 AM

heck, the Marlows had some shadow of an expectation of compensation with their threatened lawsuit vis-à-vis that 'contract'

10% discount for annual members i think so not quite tenfold

10:31 AM

Wait I thought I paid $550 and now $640 thats 10% yep

10:32 AM

Plus $110 for add-on

10:32 AM

Minus the 3 months I couldn't use DMS, guess I have to sue for my $150

10:33 AM

After $5000 in legal fees its the principle of the matter

TL;DR : good luck finding a lawyer that will take the case

A good lawyer would tell you it's not worth it. A dubious one will gladly take your money and file things. You CAN sue for anything, but most of those things won't go far.

I know one that would take it

11:09 AM

they will tell you every step of the way to cut your losses or move on

11:09 AM

and every time you tell them to keep pushing it they make you sign something that you ignored their advice

11:09 AM

and they'll charge you

To convert to class action takes a lot though. Court probably wouldn't grant it

11:09 AM

YEp

despite telling you repeatedly you don't want it

That's just allowing a fool to part with his money

he sat down one such person, explained in writing with the math in front of them highlighting the amount that would be owed at the end

11:10 AM

and said "you can do it, but we suggest you drop it" (edited)

11:10 AM

and the few people that do things "for the principle" pursue it

11:10 AM

whereas most just move along

Ricky was confused on what he was going to sue us for anyway. Letting Kris, Stan and others rip us off and the lacks of the board doing anything. Or that we followed the closure orders and he was too dumb to cancel his membership.

Do we still have that lawyer? The one that Kris bossed around at that meeting?

iirc the last board found a new lawyer

Ok cool

We still have some time with the old lawyer but the new one is soo much a better value. He does stuff!

1

The new lawyer is better, absolutely.

So wait, a lawyer is better when they do stuff? That's... sensible I suppose.

It’s been a low bar

2

12:49 PM

Pun intended

Bring your puns back to the designated pun channel, sir.

I’m a dad. I exercise the right to pun at will

2

Ah, excuse me. I didn't realize you had a license

4

Negligence on your part at fully researching the validity of a pun license has no bearing on the usage of puns. If the pun fits... you must admit...

2

1

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/are-we-turning-into-a-paid-gig-shop/73791/20 someone's got to be that guy every time, might as well be me

Ayup. I've been having one on one conversations about inurement. It can be a confusing topic, and there may be wiggle room there. It has to be approached cautiously though.

10:29 AM

I'm by no means an expert. But I also don't want to get on the IRS's bad side.

I'm no expert either, thus my approach to most things governance being abundance of caution

is QAnon big on Hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19, thus its staying power as a cultural trope despite the medical community having moved on to other treatments?

Yeah

people also learned about pre-print publishers like medrxiv

1:20 PM

not understanding how they work

1:20 PM

and should not be cited as sources in their work

I hadn't seen the name medrxiv before today, I'm glad you pointed it out.

is QAnon big on Hydroxychloroquine for COVID-19, thus its staying power as a cultural trope despite the medical community having moved on to other treatments?

@ESmith As someone who took 14 days of that stuff, all I can tell ya is that I’m not happy about the 200+ day elimination half life of it.

2:53 PM

Turns out, it doesn’t work on Pertussis. Who knew?!

2:54 PM

(To clarify...it’s elimination process will require 200+ days to clear from my body).

Boo

2:57 PM

That mean you get side effects for that long?

side effects? Like making the consumer tell dad jokes incessantly?

That was a symptom before the hcq

True

4:12 PM

Not sure about the side effects. If they exist, they are not overtly noticeable. My doc. assures me I wasn’t on it at a high enough dose...for long enough...to cause concern.

I'm a fan of consensual and informed interactions. I think having a dedicated area for political discussion on the official forum would be a good idea, that way those who don't consent to reading political posts don't have to in order to use the forum. I'm not sure Discourse supports this though. I think separating political discussion is a good medium between nonconsensually removing all political posts and having people nonconsensually read political posts. So my proposed solution is to have a separate area for politics if that can be done on Talk. If it can't be done, I'd be in favor of moving to different software. (edited)

It's def futile to have a community sans politics, however it's not censorship to ban discussion from Talk or Discord.

@NobleGoblin Do you think it's a use a force? Do you think it limits people's freedom? Do you think there are any negatives about removing people's posts without their consent?

We are a non-profit that has zero to do with Politics.

11:09 AM

If you want political discussion, have it elsewhere. there is a time and place for everything. DMS is a community, yes. We have various conversations in the building. However, that is different from giving it a dedicated space for discussion which could be construed as encouraging it.

1

11:10 AM

We don't have a separate place for religious talks. I would feel the same way if someone was on Talk inviting people to church or trying to start a religious debate on Talk.

11:11 AM

Letting people post threads is giving them a platform which can look negatively on us. It could come off as encouraging it, or supporting it. It's not our place to give platforms to things that have nothing to do with our Org.

11:12 AM

To specifically answer your questions-

11:13 AM

1) Not worded coherently. Please re-ask. 2) No it does not. We are a private entity. We get to dictate our standards. 3) Nope. We remove trolls all the time.

If you want political discussion, have it elsewhere. there is a time and place for everything. DMS is a community, yes. We have various conversations in the building. However, that is different from giving it a dedicated space for discussion which could be construed as encouraging it.

@NobleGoblin Is there a specific law you've read that you think implies that having a dedicated space on Talk for political discussion could make us lose our nonprofit status or have other negative legal ramifications? If so, I'd like to see what your argument is based on that text.

11:18 AM

1) Not worded coherently. Please re-ask.

Do you think removing all political posts is a use of force?

2) No it does not. We are a private entity. We get to dictate our standards.

So it doesn't limit people's ability to speak freely? To be clear, I'm not talking about the 1st amendment, I'm talking about people's ability to speak freely, or without restriction. The fact that we're a private entity does not imply that removing all political posts does not limit people's ability to speak freely.

3) Nope. We remove trolls all the time.

Removing trolls is a specific case, what I'm talking about is removing all political posts without the posters' consent. @NobleGoblin (edited)

1) F=M*A - I don't think that there is any Mass, so nope.

1

11:21 AM

2) People can speak freely, just not in a private forum

11:22 AM

3) I certainly define political speech on Talk as trolls.

2) People can speak freely, just not in a private forum

@Adam I'm in a few private forums wherein I can speak freely.

I hope you enjoy posting there?

11:22 AM

There are rules to soceiety.

I do not think we would lose our nonprofit status, however you have to think about how it would affect our community as a whole. I do not think that removing political posts is a use of force. How would it be? It limits peoples ability to bring up emotionally charged conversations in a diverse community where people already bicker about lesser things. The first amendment means you can say what you want, it doesn't mean your words can't be removed though. You could argue hate speech should be allowed at that point.

So you think that someone posting a cool event that happens to be put on as a political fundraiser is political speech?

I'm glad you have private forums where you can speak freely. Not everywhere can be a "safe space"

11:24 AM

You can claim what you want, but yes. It looks as if a person is passively soliciting.

3) I certainly define political speech on Talk as trolls.

@Adam I interpret this as you claiming that all political posts on Talk are made with the intent to trigger a negative response in the reader. Is that correct?

Art and life are political

11:24 AM

This is your own political bias triggering you

I don't care what your feelings or intentions were, perception and posession is 9/10 of the law.

11:24 AM

are*

11:25 AM

I have not even disclosed what my political stance is.

11:25 AM

So why are you assuming bias? I would feel the same if it had been Republican, Independent, etc.

Oh you have

I hope you enjoy posting there?

@Adam I do :)

Lets see some proof.

11:28 AM

I'll wait why you comb through my Talk history.

I do not think we would lose our nonprofit status, however you have to think about how it would affect our community as a whole. I do not think that removing political posts is a use of force. How would it be? It limits peoples ability to bring up emotionally charged conversations in a diverse community where people already bicker about lesser things. The first amendment means you can say what you want, it doesn't mean your words can't be removed though. You could argue hate speech should be allowed at that point.

@NobleGoblin I think that DMS should be able to remove all political posts in the sense that I don't think that should be illegal. And I don't think it is illegal under the first amendment. I don't think this is a first amendment issue. I think that while it shouldn't be illegal for us to remove all political posts, I think that we shouldn't. I think having a separate space for political speech is a better medium according to my values. I think removing all political posts is a use of force. I think it's forcing people to avoid politics on Talk. This is really just semantics though, I may have a different definition of force than you. I'd be happy to substitute 'use of force' with 'restriction' or 'limitation of freedom'

We do have a separate space for political talk. You mentioned that you liked posting there already.

1

I'm glad you have private forums where you can speak freely. Not everywhere can be a "safe space"

@NobleGoblin Agreed. I dislike safe spaces where the safety is from particular opinions or topics. I'm part of a group where just about the only rule is that you don't attack people, only arguments. I've gotten a lot of value out of it that I wouldn't have if we limited it by topic.

11:44 AM

We do have a separate space for political talk. You mentioned that you liked posting there already.

@Adam I don't see how it's an alternative to Talk. It does exist, but it serves DMS members who want to talk politics as much as the r/PoliticalDiscussion subreddit. I think this gets at a core question that hasn't been brought up yet: what is the purpose of the the official forum? Is it only for things directly related to DMS? As it currently stands, the off-topic category suggests otherwise. (edited)

Give me a few to reply, at work

Just because something is generically inclusive, does not mean that it is ALL inclusive.

11:52 AM

Religious proselytizing, political topics and things of an illegal nature do not belong as topics on Talk.

@DJ Vance H'okay. Thank you for your patience. This becomes one of those slippery slope deals a la "If You Give a Mouse a Cookie." It's not illegal for us to remove them. I think they should be removed for the good of the whole, regardless of my affiliations or beliefs. "Restriction" is a good word choice. It is restriction. Again, it falls under being better for the whole in my opinion.

12:03 PM

And again, I'm glad you have a place like that @DJ Vance I just don't believe DMS is that place. We are a MAKERspace not a political space. We have rules that limit what we can and cannot do, we have banned people from the space for their words. Bringing in politics, ESPECIALLY in the current climate, will likely only further polarize the members and end up causing more harm. I'm not saying we should ban speech at the space, but it has no place on Talk.

12:03 PM

@Deleted User Still waiting for you to prove my political affiliation btw.

12:04 PM

Brb- back to work for a few. I'm still here and interested in more imput.

well you're clearly fascist

1

How so?

left or right leaning i'm not entirely certain

@Deleted User How so? Defend your opinion of me.

your statements 2 lines above?

Eluciate. Also, Fascists are by definition on the far-right.

12:12 PM

Elucidate*

12:12 PM

What about my statements labels me as a Fascist @Deleted User

Here's a picture of Hitler on a sled, and you said something about a slippery slope. My ruling? Confirmed. You're a Nazi.

2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_fascism

Left-wing fascism

Left-wing fascism and left fascism are sociological and philosophical terms used to categorize tendencies in left-wing politics otherwise commonly attributed to the ideology of fascism. Fascism has historically been considered a far-right ideology.The term was formulated as a ...

@Deleted User Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, as well as strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe. Here's the definition from Wiki if you want to use it. I'm going back to work for a bit.

ooh i got wiki first i win

1

@Deleted User Thank you for that! Let me read it real quick.

I think the word you guys are looking for is authoritarianism

Relevant part: Historian Richard Wolin has used the term "left fascism" in arguing that some European intellectuals have been infatuated with post-modernist or anti-Enlightenment theories, opening up the opportunity for cult-like, irrational, anti-democratic positions that combine characteristics of the left with those of fascism.

12:18 PM

Not sure how either count me as a Fascist of any sort. I am HIGHLY amused though as I've never been called one before

12:19 PM

(Then again I am in the military and actually on orders now so if you want to finagle that into Ultra-nationalism that's your stretch to make.)

if you prefer you can be authoritarian (edited)

And again, I'm glad you have a place like that @DJ Vance I just don't believe DMS is that place. We are a MAKERspace not a political space. We have rules that limit what we can and cannot do, we have banned people from the space for their words. Bringing in politics, ESPECIALLY in the current climate, will likely only further polarize the members and end up causing more harm. I'm not saying we should ban speech at the space, but it has no place on Talk.

@NobleGoblin I'm not advocating for bringing in politics. I'm advocating for pushing it out. Why not ban it at the space? Personally, I don't think it's my business what consenting people talk about at the space. And I don't think it's my business what consenting people talk about on Talk. (edited)

or illiberal - you'll probably take that as a compliment

Just because something is generically inclusive, does not mean that it is ALL inclusive.

@Adam Agreed. But If the rule is that X does not have to do with making therefore X should not be on our official forum at all, even in a segregated place, I don't think that's compatible with having a category specifically for off-topic posts.

12:25 PM

Religious proselytizing, political topics and things of an illegal nature do not belong as topics on Talk.

@Adam So what is the rule? What should be allowed on our official forums and what should not be, even in a separate place?

so can i post this on talk? it's Making...

12:28 PM

maybe remake this as a 10x10?

I would say talk is publicly searchable. Maybe it's more a PR issue than us discussing politics?

@Adam So what is the rule? What should be allowed on our official forums and what should not be, even in a separate place?

@DJ Vance I'll add people who are clearly trolling, per the opinion of the moderaton team.

@Adam ? add people to what? I don't see how that answers my question

@gramniculus - Are you making them or posting them as a political statement? I have no particular issue with either image, but as a troll post, I'd personally flag it.

I wouldn't. I'd laugh and move on

Clearly there is one person who has anger issues on Talk (the guy who responded to the thread being discussed here) who came back with explicatives and threatening tone.

I think the real issue is that we need software that allows users to choose what kinds of posts they want to see

12:33 PM

That way when someone tells someone to fuck off, they can fuck off without leaving Talk entirely

If he has a question about why the prints are failing, I'd not flag.

12:34 PM

But as a unqualified image, the question is WHY are they posting it.

people share their art on Talk all the time

Are those YOUR art?

12:40 PM

Or are you a troll?

Back. Let me catch up.

(not specifically you, but the individual who would post such things?)

@DJ Vance I don't think banning voice chat at the space is the same as moderating Talk. People have casual conversations about everything from A-Z at the space but we don't allow certain conversations on talk as it is. (i.e. Adult conversations) @Deleted User I would prefer you not assume, but you already have so you might as well defend your stance. Political dildos don't phase me regardless of if it is Trump or Mother Teresa or Obama. Nice try though.

it's a hypothetical

12:43 PM

do you question the motivation of every project post?

12:43 PM

or only those that go against your politics?

Not all, just the ones that are clearly political in nature.

so how much politics is too much?

I'm with Adam @Deleted User Art is a bit different than found images. One is sharing something YOU created and there is value in that unless it is blatantly hate speech. Found images are purposefully trying to elicit a reaction

well @NobleGoblin you just said the opposite of your BF

12:44 PM

he has a problem with them but you aren't fazed by political dildos

Fiance*

12:44 PM

We don't have to agree on everything.

but you just said you're with him

12:44 PM

which is it?

@Deleted User We are not the same person. We are adults who can converse about things we disagree on. I agree with parts of his statements. Your point?

this tag teaming sure is fun

@Deleted User We are not even in the same state much less the same room. This is not tag teaming

ok so suppose I create an original trump dildo model and print it

You still have not clarified why you consider me a Fascist/Authoritarian.

and I want to share photos on talk because it's cool and also fuck trump

12:46 PM

ok or not?

Post it on talk under show and tell.

even though it's political?

Don't make a whole thread about it

12:47 PM

Don't try and elicit a political conversation.

but if Marlow wants to open a thread about new dollhouse furniture is that ok?

You can talk about how something is constructed, how it's made, etc WITHOUT talking about furniture.

12:47 PM

Yup. Because her dollhouse is not clearly advocating a political agenda.

ok so projects have to go in show and tell thread

12:47 PM

but only if they're political

12:48 PM

these rules make a lot of sense

My -opinions- might not be perfect. I'll grant that. One is a BLATANT attempt at eliciting political discussion and trying to get reactions

12:48 PM

The other is dollhouse furniture.

The amount of politics is dependent upon the benefit to DMS. If it's your art, then please show it off. If you have aquestion about whether it's better to use black or white 3d Printed material for your Trump dildos, that's fair as far as I'm concerned. If you want to know whether they'll fall apart inside of a person because they are 3D printed? Go at it.

ok, so I think it's clear you haven't put thought into this

12:48 PM

and these are just gut reactions

You're right. I don't exactly lie awake trying to figure out how to argue with trolls.

@Deleted User No, I have thought about it today as we have been discussing it, but I dare say it's not gut reaction.

coming from further south?

?

12:50 PM

As if am I from further south?

nah bad attempt at a joke

Sorry I didn't get it.

He's trying to emulate Trumpian speech.

12:51 PM

"bleeding out of the ears or other places"

actual non-gender specific

but I'm guessing he thinks that because I haven't got a full treatisie on it that it's out of my ass

bingo

Must have missed that clip.'

even tho you've not responded to any of my actual statements

12:52 PM

it's pretty clear

This has been riveting but I am getting off work and will be AFK for a bit.

even tho you've not responded to any of my actual statements

@Adam I know how you feel. I'm still waiting for the legal argument to be made.

Troll -GTFO Question or legit reason - Post away.

ok, well I guess my summary is I think you should not judge people's interests by whether they're political

There are no LEGAL reasons as far as I'm aware.

Oooh that's hot coming from someone who called a stranger a Fascist

if you want to restrict people's speech that's what you are

12:53 PM

whether you think that's better for the "community" or not

Who is hurt by consenting people talking politics on our official forum?

and yes I know it's not a first amendment issue

12:53 PM

it's still an ugly goal

#relevantXKCD is needed here.

That's not how that works but ok. I also support businesses being able to refuse service whenever they want.

12:54 PM

anyway, I'm not paid overtime. Bye.

we're a private business, we can say what goes on the forum. It leads to nothing but toxic arguments and doesn't provide any benefit. There are better venues for discussing politics

3

12:54 PM

we're a makerspace; that venue isn't us

That's not how that works but ok. I also support businesses being able to refuse service whenever they want.

@NobleGoblin I do too. Do you understand the different between that and supporting businesses whenever they refuse service? (edited)

12:55 PM

ugh

12:55 PM

we're a private business, we can say what goes on the forum. It leads to nothing but toxic arguments and doesn't provide any benefit. There are better venues for discussing politics

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium how nice of you to decide that for everyone else

Who is hurt by consenting people talking politics on our official forum?

@DJ Vance Clearly DMS has had issues with talk being labeled "toxic" and driving people away. That's bad for business.

as the person in charge of the moderation where we get all the complaints

@DJ Vance Clearly DMS has had issues with talk being labeled "toxic" and driving people away. That's bad for business.

@Adam sweeping generalization fallacy

yes that is something to decide for you

or irrelevant, one of the two

or maybe you should get rid of the people calling it toxic

when new members are afraid to ask questions on talk because arguments go off the rails we have a problem

1

that sounds like a PR issue

and this is how you solve PR issues

12:56 PM

by putting the foot down on things that bring down our community

2

12:56 PM

without contributing to it

12:56 PM

we're not a political organisation

like people denigrating a DMS resource for no reason?

we're a damn makerspace

or maybe you should get rid of the people calling it toxic

@Deleted User That sounds like facism to me.

yes that is something to decide for you

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium you get to, you should be able to, and yet you shouldn't. Really not that hard to understand.

sure but at least the trains will run on time

by putting the foot down on things that bring down our community

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium having a separate space for political speech brings down your community? hmm ok

you have a right to speech in the US, but not the right to a platform. That is a very big difference. Don't like it? Go try starting a political argument inside a best buy and see what they do.

1

12:58 PM

see how management, the people around you, and the police interpret it

12:58 PM

it's just not the right venue

you have a right to speech in the US, but not the right to a platform. That is a very big difference. Don't like it? Go try starting a political argument inside a best buy and see what they do.

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium Read my previous messages, this is not a 1st amendment issue.

there are plenty of discussion boards and other areas for the purpose

12:58 PM

yet you call it facism, whatever

there's a lack of understanding opposing viewpoints going on here

you want to argue for the sake of arguing, this is exactly the kind of crap we're trying to avoid

makes senss

do you think if you and your inlaws started having a political argument inside best buy (no raised voices, fistfight etc), that the police would be called?

the problem is that's assuming people stay civil

you want to argue for the sake of arguing, this is exactly the kind of crap we're trying to avoid

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium It seems you don't understand what I'm saying.

the politics threads have a history of nothing civil on talk

1

they're just words

they don't contribute to our mission, they don't benefit our community, there are better places for it

1

the politics threads have a history of nothing civil on talk

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium and therefore separating it out to a place where only consenting people go is a bad idea? I don't follow

Get your panties out of a twist. Sorry your coochie got hurt.

I specifically disavowed partisanship. This was a link to an event. I PROMOTED AN EVENT YOU STUPID FUCK.

1:00 PM

how does the above contribute?

1:00 PM

to our community

seems like the moderators fucked the community there

this is the kind of shit that politics starts

now you have a pissed member

@DJ Vance management overhead

1:00 PM

and even then it's not a free-for-all if such a place were allowed

1:00 PM

which means it has to be moderated anyway

1:00 PM

which means that now we have people that complain about posts being "hidden" because they don't get it

1:01 PM

it was tried

1:01 PM

it failed to work in practice

also pretty uncool sharing what presumably was a private message

that wasn't

1:01 PM

that was posted publicly on talk

ah nm then sorry

this is the BS you are spewing right now. You just want to argue

1:01 PM

with no understanding on how to run a community

1:01 PM

and making assumptions about those you are arguing wtih

1

how does the above contribute?

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium It seems you don't understand what I'm saying. Read my previous messages.

leave it to the people who deal with all the complaints on a regular basis

1:02 PM

I do raffi

1:02 PM

like I said, we tried that area on talk before

1:02 PM

it did not work out

Tall supports having a separate area? When was this tried? What didn't work?

people treat it like a free for all. "It's opt-in so it must be ok" is the mentality that is a concern. It still has to be moderated, but the shit that spews gets worse when people think no one cares. We still have to have decorum of some sort.

1:03 PM

it was the "debates" category for heated arguments

1:04 PM

the first course of action before we decided on this route was whether or not to revive it, but all the discussions with those that handled it previously came to the same conclusion that it simply is not worth it

1:04 PM

there are better places for the various heated topics, with moderators that are far more involved and available, and those topics are relevant to those communities

1:04 PM

this is none of those, and trying to say "make it so" simply isn't enough to keep things sane

1:05 PM

for example, let's say that someone starts a politics thread. It ends up being contentious. That member did not want to be in the opt-in category. They are then forced into it with that thread, or they're not able to discuss the thread at all anymore? What about the fact they now deal with all the other crap in that category

1:05 PM

it's easy to make a thread not realising how quick things escalate.

1:06 PM

before you know it half the general membership has ended up in the "isolated" area simply because they didn't realise how touchy a topic can get. Then you have to make more isolated areas to segregate out whatever got them there and not ruin the whole purpose, but then the process repeats (edited)

1:06 PM

it's not an easy solution

@hon1nbo (k/j/t) exsilium well said.

Honestly, I think DMS as a community is perfectly capable of having political discussions (that is, discussions about hot-button issues or governance in general) so long as people follow the general forum rules. We've had quite a few threads about political topics that didn't end up as total trash fires. We just have to make sure people don't use the topic of discussion as an excuse to be abusive jerks.

@Toenolla Before this election I might have been inclined to agree. My concern is the political climate as a whole is very volatile and I wouldn’t want to risk DMS having more drama or issues than it already has this year.

Personally, I think the problem with this election cycle was that people DID use it as an excuse. And we banned them for it.

(Also, whether we can discuss politics and whether we can endorse candidates/parties are different questions.)

@Deleted User are you even a member? I don't see anyone with that username on the forums

4:14 PM

the only search results online with a hit for your username is a review on Best Buy's website 13 years ago, you didn't even bother to set a profile picture, you look like a sock puppet account

4:14 PM

(hilarious aside, that review was marked as unhelpful)

Lol thanks for stalking I guess

you're a troll and probably a banned member I bet

I'd think you wouldn't gatekeep so much considering your recent membership status

lol what?

You mean a ban by a board member who was banned for stealing from the dms?

4:18 PM

Who banned him to keep him quiet?

because I discovered and investigated that stealing too

4:18 PM

yeah, I'm real ashamed of that

Tomato

2

what a terrible person I must be

He's very toggled that a post got removed.

Hey I'm clearly not the only one

4:22 PM

DMS seems to have a pretty entrenched culture of censorship

Correction. Closed but still visable

how do we know? maybe you're raffi's sock puppet lol

You can see the quote Jim posted earlier

He's to angry and irrational for raffi

true

and raffi doesn't mind posting on their own account here

yeah, I don't think raffi is the kind to sock puppet tbh (edited)

whoever it is blocked me which I find hilarious, but disappointing I can't send the Sweet Potato emoji above

lol

4:23 PM

probably the guy you quoted then

yeah Raffi and I disagree about a lot but he's upfront and open about everything

because why would some random no-profile-picture account care to block you?

maybe? doubt it honestly.

4:24 PM

as for the quote earlier you mean the one from talk?

Here yam away

is that you? I'm kinda surprised honestly if it is

4:25 PM

hey actually unblocked. fun

complains about censorship, blocks Jim for no apparent reason

1

4:25 PM

Maybe he really just likes princess bride that much, and it's not about politics. But he's ashamed of liking a movie that much

it's a good movie though

No one ever pitched it for movie night tho

so I found that thread (I hadn't read it), it actually would be problematic for us

4:28 PM

because the person wanted to use DMS resources to raise funds for a political party

4:29 PM

which as a 501c3 we can't do

I find the post interesting. Matt mentioned not wanting to support either party but the link itself required donations to a party to participate

eh, it's not likely to actually be a problem

4:29 PM

the concern is there but it's not an official thing

probably not, but it's clear why it wasn't allowed

it's not a director telling people in their capacity to go do something

4:29 PM

actually that's not what got the thread closed

it's too far over the "line" of political activity to risk it

the post that did was deleted

Oh really

though originally it would have been left, a moderator accidentally hit the "act" button instead of the ignore button after putting in a flag. Since the Act button takes away the posters ability to correct the post to avoid the flag, and currently that person is being a chance to correct the behaviour, it was left locked as-is rather than have that nasty-ass post be the thing the person left off on

4:31 PM

they've already reached out and apologized for the matter

4:31 PM

for some perspective, that quote section I pasted above was not even half of what was in that post

That makes more sense as to why it was closed

yeah

ah gotcha

the 503 issue was what got our attention in long term discussion, but even though that was dismissed as not really being problematic the toxic crap like that which seems inevitable on talk in politics threads was the core reason for the decision

4:32 PM

and this was a normally tame person

4:32 PM

politics doesn't do anyone any good when sitting at a keyboard

1

4:33 PM

so unless it's something like a "get out the vote" thing it just doesn't need to be there.

there's loads of places to talk politics, DMS Talk doesn't have to be one of them (edited)

3

2

4:35 PM

I like anime, but I don't feel the need to go on Talk and start thread after thread about the latest show I'm watching

4:35 PM

it's ok for Talk to be about DMS and making stuff

1

4:36 PM

I guess now I'm a https://tenor.com/view/adventure-time-treetrunks-fascist-gif-9506794 (edited)

1

No glitter

1

there's a reason I had that one marked as a favorite lol

More evidence that you are one

My favorite gif ❤️

I’m heavily considering changing my discord tag to Fascist Kween

2

@NobleGoblin the fashionable fascist

@themitch22 changed it. No ragrets. Still unsure of if I’m a left leaning or right leaning one though.

you fucking fascists. i knew it

lol wut

apparently @NobleGoblin is a fascist according to some silly person on the server

2

Fuck yeah I am! Though I’m still unsure of what that means since it was never clearly defined if I was a left or right leaning one. Soooo I’m just following suite and making shit up as I go

fascists are generally right wing; communists are left wing. but at the end of the day they both bend back around to the point that they effectively meet.

1

Like magenta!

If you want to rip a hole in political spacetime, just tell them you're an anarcho-fascist

Eh. I like to keep people guessing. Plus, once you label yourself or align with a specific party/belief publicly then people looooove to make assumptions about you.

2

1

I don't claim an ideology and no ideology claims me

7:34 AM

the appeal is obvious - something prepackaged that offers the solution to (most of) life's political questions

7:34 AM

but the idea that any one school of thought consistently has the best answers beggars belief

I've come around to the utility of labels as I've gotten older. They're good for organizing around, but not so great for building an identity.

3

Same. Got no issue with labels, just wish the bulk of humanity could move past one-size-fits-all ideology

1

The PTouch label maker would run out of tape before I'm done labeling myself.

1

fascists are generally right wing; communists are left wing. but at the end of the day they both bend back around to the point that they effectively meet.

And the point where they "meet" and become harder to distinguish from each other in any other than a pure economic perspective is authoritarianism.

what would the opposite of authoritarianism be?

un-authoritarianism

1

2:08 AM

1

fair enough

I mean, anarchism is the opposite of authoritarianism. Anarchists don't want authority to exist.

7:20 PM

(With caveats. I'm not an anarchist but I know there are nuances.)

anarchism means without rulers, not necessarily without rules

8:32 PM

but there's like a million flavors of anarchism

8:34 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_schools_of_thought

Anarchist schools of thought

Anarchism is the political philosophy which holds ruling classes and the state to be undesirable, unnecessary and harmful, or alternatively as opposing authority and hierarchical organization in the conduct of human relations.Proponents of anarchism, known as anarchists, advoc...

8:35 PM

have fun with that rabbit hole

All this just makes me think of the python scene about the anarcho-syndicalist commune.

3

lol yeah

Imagine Trump had Biden arrested tomorrow personally and had the ability to disqualify Biden from the election.

10:09 PM

It would be just another DMS election

you're not funny

It wasn't meant to be funny, just truthful.

haha

10:12 PM

its hilarious

back to your conspiracy hole

It's nothing based in reality but still hilarious

10:13 PM

@NextFungus do tell us, did Kris really not steal from DMS? Abuse her position? Lie to the members? Is that all a figment of our imagination?

No clue, I didn't review any of the evidence.

That being the case, how could you make such a comparison?

Because it wasn't about Kris Anderson . (edited)

maybe it was about the person who got the least number of votes

The imposter Among Us is typing

lol sounds like something mark would say

nah, it's too new of a reference

Mark, Draco, come on point fingers wherever you want

@aceat64 I ain't go no time keeping up with that

lol

10:17 PM

Among Us is pretty fun (edited)

Agreed

So why not identify yourself?

Why do I need to, does that change the validity?

10:19 PM

That's super sus.

It totally changes the validity

10:19 PM

Simply put, arguing in bad faith is bad

Okay explain this, why didn't you do the card swipe?

kinda hard to care about the opinion of a random person, who probably doesn't know anything about the org, and whose only real comments were clear trolling

card swipe?

I've made my point, you guys know what you've done and participated in. If this haunts you, there's a reason.

they dont have any evidence to back themselves up so they are just making among us references

ah

10:21 PM

Sounds like baseless bs, i sleep great a night haha

man, now I'm interested in this "card swipe" conspiracy

10:22 PM

the crazy theories are always hilarious

so what does card swipe have to do with among us?

probaly some homeless making fake rfid cards

he's making an Among Us joke

10:22 PM

but I want to believe it's actually a DMS-based conspiracy

10:22 PM

because that would actually be funny

Sometimes DMS card swipes are harder than Among Us card swipes

here's why the joke failed man, you can't see someone do the card swipe

@pearce wouldn't be suprised if some homeless was doing fake rfid's not like its hard or complicated

1

ROFLMAO

making jokes based on current references but getting it wrong because he hasn't actually played the game is pretty great

You're getting it wrog, I said they didn't do a card swipe, that means I camped by the card and never saw them show up to do it. When the card swipe is in the game everyone gets the task. (edited)

card swipe isn't always a common task, dude

10:27 PM

I'm going to play a video game for real now

Listen I know there are some typos but your reading comprehension is poor (edited)

have fun

All right guys we're definitely voting LeCody out next round. And if you have to vote me out first that's fine just make sure when I'm not the imposter you take him out next. (edited)

When the card swipe is in the game everyone gets the task.

10:29 PM

that's called a common task

10:29 PM

card swipe isn't always a common task

Sus

10:30 PM

this is some boomer memes stuff lol

You wouldn't be so agitated if you weren't the imposter

have fun making bad comparisons to elections

Weren't you the one that did nonsense stuff with the excuse that it was because of the coronavirus like getting rid of storage?

wasnt my choise bud

Then I'm mistaken

10:33 PM

I actually think storage is a bad idea, but whatever fraud made the choice to get rid of it made a mistake doing it the way that they did it.

This seems like some David Ratcliffe bs

fungus is an apt name

nah, he's not David, I'm on good terms with David (edited)

haha

10:34 PM

take away my fun

edit to clarify

Cute, but regardless, false comparison is false.

NextFungus != Funny ##sad sad trolling

My main regrets wrt Havens was brokering that compromise in 2016 that only expelled him for 9 months

3:22 PM

Had I not, he would have been perma-B& and I could have abstained from the vote for lack of familiarity with the lurid past brought up at that first BoD meeting

3:29 PM

But he's not going to be much missed

3:31 PM

That's OK. He can scam grants for junk-science CS research grants at UTA doing "... but with computers!" psychological assessments, automating methods that were invalidated last century. (edited)

I have a similar regret. I should have pushed to ban him when he started a non-profit that listed other members as directors without their consent, made the DMS the registered agent without our knowledge/consent and then thumbed his nose at us for trying to resolve it in a civil/professional way. We naively assumed a ban wasn't needed since he left of his own accord after we filed the paperwork with the state to reject the registered agent status and such.

4:08 PM

He did well laying low between his times of harassment, so that the political will to ban him would dimish enough to be safe.

Hindsight is 2020. We often do not have either enough time or enough knowledge for nuanced solutions. In the end his shenanigans are gone. I really appreciate the leadership past boards have provided. A lot of those type issues seem infrequent now. Maybe we are settling in for a more mature makerspace. I watch a virtual tour that James gave yesterday and was amazed at several committees areas like Machine Shop, Glass, Ceramics. While there is still lots of rearranging/construction, it is now possible to see light at the end of the tunnel.

4

How does one get a kangaroo permit? Asking for a friend

I'm sure there's some guy out back of a cell phone accessories store on Irving Blvd that could hook you up

2

1

and tasty

Kanga Stew!

their leather is incredibly durable as well

And dresses made from their hide have pockets!

1

Kangaroo would be a terrible pet

But a good steak

Never had it, Twisted Root had exotic meats like that

Yep. Thats where I had it and my aussie friend has a recipe which would surprise you

10:19 PM

https://mykoreankitchen.com/kangaroo-meat-bulgogi-bbq/

Korean Style Kangaroo Meat BBQ

Korean style Kangaroo meat BBQ! Thinly sliced kangaroo rump steak is marinated in Korean bulgogi sauce. It's tender and delicious! I became an Australian citizen several years ago. Near the end of my citizenship ceremony, someone from the stage shouted out loud “Aussie Aussie ...

Kangaroo would be a terrible pet

@themitch22 have to disagree here, it would be just like having a big dog but with a utility pocket! If you don't have a big yard for it then get a wallaby, they don't need as much space. Though honestly, they can't carry as much in their pocket either

let us know how that works out - license and all

Except your dog can now kick your backdoor in when they want in. (edited)

weirdly, this comes to mind... https://youtu.be/nvIi9NZzLzA?t=54

Lord Jerome

Family Guy At the Zoo

1

Except your dog can now kick your backdoor in when they want in.

@Lampy (Ken Purcell) I'll just put in a kangaroo size doggy door. It'll be fine.

Though truthfully I'm not really into big pets, they are harder to clean up after. I'd be more likely to get a wallaby or tree kangaroo.

I imagine in Texas it's about as easy as getting one for a tiger, just get a sheriff to sign off on it after establishing that you have an environment to care for it and keep it contained.

I can confirm that the kangaroo burgers at Twisted Root are tasty.

Twisted Root...RIP

3

?

Twisted Root went out of business

Some locations. Notably Carrollton, Coppell and Arlington. Not sure about the status of the others. Some are franchisee owned

The airport is the only one left in town. Though the website lists the other locations as 'temporarily closed'...

Lewisville location closure looks permanent: another restaurant is opening there

By Mustang Station there is a brewery restaurant opening soon.

2

Twisted Root appears to be back!

4

3/29 Announce 2021 Board of Directors Election & Annual Membership Meeting for 4/30 7pm (TALK)
3/31 Notification reminder to request Voting Rights and/or file Statements of Intent (Email & TALK)
4/14 5pm Deadline to file Statements of Intent on our Wiki (https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Category:2021_Statements_of_Intent 8)
4/14 5pm Deadline to request Voting Rights (Member in Good Standing 90 days)
4/14 5pm Deadline to submit other business
4/15 Setup Online Voting System (Secretary)
4/16 8am Online Voting Beginning (2 week duration)
4/21 Meet The Candidates (can be any day week of 4/18)
4/30 5pm Online Voting Ends
4/30 5:30pm Voting Reports/Exports from Simply Voting
4/30 6pm Tally Votes
4/30 7pm Election Results Announcement & Transfer of Officers

1:21 PM

The voting system will send you an email on the morning of 4/16 when voting opens. This email will contain your credentials to vote.

It will look like:

Hello {name},

You are registered to vote in 2021 Board of Directors Election of the Dallas Makerspace. This ballot ends at 2021-04-30 17:00 US/Central.

To vote, please visit: https://dallasmakerspace.simplyvoting.com/

Then enter:

Elector ID - {elector_id}
Password - {password}

Or follow this link to access the ballot directly: https://dallasmakerspace.simplyvoting.com/{direct_link}

Regards,
Dallas Makerspace

We have five statements of intent, anyone else feel compelled to run for BoD?

NEGATIVE

^^^^^ this

Any other items on the ballot this year?

Nope. We had very little faith that we'd be able to get a quorum, and didn't like clearing the voting roll without lots and lots of notice (one way to fix the quorum issue)

nose goes

What's the DMS page to confirm voting rights again?

Makermanager.dallasmakerspace.org will do it i believe

that does indeed rattle off AD groups. thanks.

i will add a talk post about it

The elections are live at: https://dallasmakerspace.simplyvoting.com/index.php If you are a Voting Member you should get an email with your credentials to login and vote. Polls are open until 5pm on 4/30. If you need to check if you are in the Voting Rights AD group you can look at your account in Maker Manager https://makermanager.dallasmakerspace.org/ Look in the right column for Voting Members (edited)

Dallas Makerspace :: Online Voting

Dallas Makerspace online voting website

9:05 AM

There are 247 Voting Members, so quorum (1/3 of Voting Members) would be 82.

69 members have voted so far. Quorum is 82. 12 days to go.

3

I'm getting a 522: Connection timed out at Dallasmakerspace.org

waiting for Wednesday meet the candidates hours

whoops that was meant for general

hi hailey, not seein any issues connecting here in garland to it

hmmmmmmm

1

sorry

6:39 PM

and hi long time no chats friendo

1

worse voter apathy than I was expecting

doesn't that mean people aren't rallying pitchforks?

2:43 PM

but also haven't had the meet the candidates yet

Personally I am waiting till at least the meeting. If one decides to vote for 5, then in a way it's voting against one... and for that... I'd like to hear see more from the candidates.

Ditto

1

2 to go

bah, 167 to go, and Hardsuit and I are 2 of them waiting for at least the meet

1

2 more just to make quorum, I for one would love to see a participation rate as high as possible. This is the most Voting Members (electors) we have ever had and was making me nervous about reaching quorum and having to run the election again.

️

3

I apologize I wanted to attend in person but I would be late do to an unforseen circumstance. I will be attending the Google meet online for the MTC

Questions_for_the_Candidates_-_2021_MakerSpace.pdf

33.71 KB

7:09 PM

Only a couple of the questions showed up on chat.

cool, thanks

7:13 PM

online google meet https://meet.google.com/jnx-cgoe-cer

Meet

Real-time meetings by Google. Using your browser, share your video, desktop, and presentations with teammates and customers.

as I mentioned in the meeting, ill posit my question live. once asked, ill paste here for posterity for others to see (though it will be in the meeting recording)

7:34 PM

Doug Emes: I have been a member longer than most. I have watched us move multiple locations and have seen the swell and shrink of the members. while the classic prell hair commercial had 2 friends telling 2 other friends. this is both a problem and a solution. for each candidate, please identify what actions you would push the other board members to FINISHING in the 1st 60 days of office. We hear so often that there are plans, but I think we can all agree there's plenty of low to mid hanging fruit that would benefit the entirety of the space when we take things singularly. Answers might include WHCMS code fixes, a suite of onboarding videos, etc. the re-arrange of an area with concrete documentation and layouts, to include a virtual representation.

1

Whmcs code fixes have been completed for more than 2 weeks

yes, thanks the emails/tickets have really been reduced!

Lol funny how quickly they dropped off

still have people issues

Always will haha

has Charles talked with the committee chairs about this idea?

7:38 PM

can't imagine they all want to deal with it individually (edited)

storage fetish?

7:39 PM

YKINMKBYKIOK

7:43 PM

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1nxuL15zAf5Qf21CIYKOAspco9T8JKcpjiXKUP_hjJ-M/edit?usp=sharing

DMS - New Member Orientation

Welcome To The Maker Movement Hi, I’m Andrew LeCody (or someone else, I don’t know this is a premade slide show) Please do not use this slide deck if you are requesting honorarium These slides are licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 2.0 Generic License The mak...

2

yes, be glad once we can host those classes again

minor note, the slides are licensed under CC-BY-NC-SA

7:45 PM

so I do ask that anyone teaching the class using these slides not be taking honorarium

3

7:47 PM

a good slide to add would be profile pictures of officers, chairs and board members

7:47 PM

alright, gotta bounce busy busy

thanks Andrew

yeah @aceat64 - for a followup, i would say it makes MUCHO sense for us to automate much of that delivery akin to the intro videos at the big recreation parks like Disney etc. Then once the domain knowledge has been sent out, have those open house Q&A or followups for the actual "live" but I support it andrew, heck I sat in both yours and Lara's (edited)

3

I don't have tons of free time currently, so I can't commit to teaching, but I'm up for filming an intro video

7:54 PM

could email it when they sign up

2

7:54 PM

I just need someone with editing experience to make it look good, I can provide content and voice/face

i can do those things, plus I think using some rapid tools like descript works well

7:55 PM

i have posted previously in laser an example of the output

I cam help as well. I'm only dangeous with editing tools, but can help :)

7:56 PM

Can also get it up on moodle

yeah justin i think we need both moodle and a full video only example for youtube/external facing

Thanks @aceat64 and @doug.emes ! A video would be great! I was hoping we could use some of @aceat64 's class material. I don't think this should be an honorarium class. I'm willing to teach but a video would be much better.

2

@Skyspook just got the signage player working for the front lobby, we could just put the intro video on loop up there

That might be cool

That would be awesome

Please post any questions you have for the candidates here.

2

what is the google meet link you are using? troubleshooting a problem with my laptop

https://meet.google.com/icv-iibx-pdj

Meet

Real-time meetings by Google. Using your browser, share your video, desktop, and presentations with teammates and customers.

thanks, was at the wrong link and in my own echo chamber

Almost 53% of Voting Members have voted.

7:20 AM

Final reminder email going out at 8am this morning

2

62% of Voting members have voted so far. Voting ends today at 5pm.

2

Maybe next time we can get some bylaws updated.

3

3

Finish

Can I get a copy of the D&O ins sent to my email? Thelab needs to shop around

you'll want to email admin@ for that one

done

Our broker info is probably more useful than the policy. Our broker actually understands what a makerspace is and how to get insurance for it's board. I'll dig that up and send it your way

1

Forgive my cluelessness, but we’re election results ever announced?

8:49 PM

Were. Damn autocorrect.

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/2021-dms-board-of-directors-election-annual-meeting/79830/18

8:58 PM

also, https://discord.com/channels/300062029559889931/300075034951811073/837863086752399391

Thx

also at https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Board_of_Directors

Board of Directors

pride

2

3

Live by the board, die by the board

1

1

anyone know what the fellowship fund looks like currently?

7:10 PM

or is there a report somewhere I can check

Last time I knew a legit answer was years ago after a certain board member gave them out like candy. It was negative $430.

damn

If we want to fundraise for it I would toss in. But it would be worthwhile to see if the sign up link has generated anything since.

I think we'd probably want to redesign it a bit first, so it's more clear what it should be used for and when

7:43 PM

it would be much more useful as a recruiting tool to get underprivileged members of the community to join

7:44 PM

instead of as a reward for volunteering, especially since we expect that everyone should be helping to build DMS

Such a fund, regardless of intent, really needs an endowment in my opinion.

Great idea, was never happy it became an attaboy award.

aceat64

instead of as a reward for volunteering, especially since we expect that everyone should be helping to build DMS

you mean the original intent?

yup

We are working on a plan for it for the new year. If anyone has people to nominate send it our way.

Denzuko.sdf.org started a thread. 1/1/2022 10:48 AM

there are no SOIs. we're doomed. https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Category:2022_Statements_of_Intent

Category:2022 Statements of Intent

Give people a few more months to decide if they're into masochism

1

been there done that didn't even get the promised t-shirt

I wasn't even offered a t-shirt

I had to make the shirts to get elected

5

pearce

I had to make the shirts to get elected

Make shirt happen?

Be the shirt you want to see in the world.

are shirts optional?

No Shirt No Shoes No Service Picture Business Customer ...

A. Spencer(jast)

Click to see attachment 🖼️

Doesn't say anything about no pants...

3

Gotta love Bert's input on an organization he is not a member of. (Sorry referring to a PM on talk that I forwarded to the D&O). Just venting.

1

I used to try and reply to him, but after a while I realized that he's just waiting for a reply so he can type another monologue and not even reading the response.

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/proposal-code-of-conduct-change-reform/87308

Proposal: Code of Conduct change/reform

Our current Code of Conduct is well intentioned but attempts to cover too many different aspects of managing member behavior. This means that the process of handling an issue is the same for someone who unintentionally broke an organizational rule (e.g. not cleaning up) and for someone who sexually harasses another member. My proposal is to repl...

3:18 PM

I spent a lot of time thinking on this and writing up the drafts

3:18 PM

but don't worry, I also have an idea for classes/honorarium/training changes too, which I'm sure will be an equally popular topic

3:19 PM

the main takeaway from this post is that I would really like everyone to read or at least skim this book: https://frameshiftconsulting.com/resources/code-of-conduct-book/

vaurora

Code of Conduct book

You can now download a free book detailing how to enforce a code of conduct, “How to Respond to Code of Conduct Reports,” written by Valerie Aurora and Mary Gardiner and edited by Annal…

3

Much concern trolling

Honestly it's going better than I expected. There are actual adults in the thread.

how dare you accuse me of being mature!

3:03 PM

but in all seriousness, it's going surprisingly well

the primary issue seems to revolve around only the small part of the draft COC, and really that just covers some reasons why a report might not be acted on

3:12 PM

e.g. a report made in bad faith

3:12 PM

when I get some time later I'll think about how it might be reworded

3:14 PM

there's a balance to be made between making it clear that abusing the COC is an violation of the COC and not wanting to scare off legitimate reports

you should replace the "right to not act" in the reverse-ism section with "logged and dismissed"

2

The discussion is going fairly well for a DMS thread.

but it's a wednesday, which we all know is All South Park All Day on Comedy Central. Once that's over, the gloves'll come off...

3

4:33 PM

or is that the wheels...

I updated the sections about how bad faith reports may be dismissed

10:52 AM

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/proposal-code-of-conduct-change-reform/87308/67?u=andrewlecody

10:52 AM

Old text:

In order to protect volunteers from abuse and burnout, we reserve the right to reject any report we believe to have been made in bad faith. Reports intended to silence legitimate criticism may be deleted without response.

New text:

In order to protect volunteers from abuse and burnout, we reserve the right to reject any report we believe to have been made in bad faith. A pattern of bad faith reports may result in disciplinary action. Reports made in good faith that later turn out to be incorrect will not result in any actions taken against the reporter.

(edited)

10:53 AM

also took out the paragraph about what kinds of bad faith reports and the safety > comfort bit, since it's really not a critical piece of the draft

10:55 AM

but I'm going to be honest, a constant stream of "this won't work" is really frustrating and not a form of positive collaboration

This certainly generates a lot of What If'isms.

effective collaboration requires that we bring solutions, not problems

10:58 AM

instead of "this won't work" we need people to say "this won't work, I think it should be worded like this: [actual wording to replace the problematic part]"

I understand changing your flag for Pride Month, but we are now approaching Month 9 of Pride Month for DMS Discord. Are we now adding LGBT advocacy to our primary mission statement as an organization? Are we a makerspace for general audiences, or are we an advocacy group or explicitly LGBT-focused interest group? (edited)

its entirly possible i lost the other

8:10 PM

and the flag doesnt bother me

If the Dallas Morning News constantly printed its title in rainbow colors, people would think it’s trying to take out the Voice.

i honestly dont see the issue with showing others that we support the LGBT communities (edited)

8:26 PM

and continue to do so beyond june

A logo is the first piece of marketing a person sees when learning what an organization does and what activities its members are primarily interested in. Our organization is a place where you can learn cool maker skills, work on projects, and network with other makers (and LGBT people are included, just like everyone else). When a person sees or scrolls past the Discord channel for the first time, our marketing materials should have them thinking about that. Right now, our marketing materials are having people thinking, “Oh, this must be where I go to learn the place and time of the next Pride activity.”

thats a jump

A jump for what?

That’s not an answer to my question

sure it is

8:48 PM

thats a gif

8:48 PM

an animated image showing the thing you were asking about

It’s okay to have the Voice and the Dallas Morning News exist in the same city. But we’re the Dallas Morning News.

a jump to conclusions mat

No, it wasn’t.

i see

8:49 PM

Yes. It was.

Hi i have a masters degree in marketing

pearce

Yes. It was.

Can you elaborate?

yes

8:50 PM

it was an answer

8:50 PM

you just didnt like it

this is an unofficial discord server and it is stated as such,

3

also may i direct you here https://discord.com/channels/300062029559889931/305931634480381962/305933764633165824

therefore what we do with the logos in the discord do not matter

2

you can go to the talk forum and complain about the logo there

it could be a picture of a raccoon eating trash with the DMs logo slapped on it

1

1

the talk logo is also currently the normal dms logo

pearce

you just didnt like it

I have no opinion on your answer because I’m still waiting to hear exactly what you are trying to say. Which part of my post do you think is a jump to the wrong conclusion, and how? (edited)

Jeb Babushka

it could be a picture of a raccoon eating trash with the DMs logo slapped on it

This is fair.

its a jump to a conclusion

8:51 PM

a stretch

8:52 PM

you honestly think people see a pride logo on the server and thing OH NOES THEY ARE GONNA TEACH ME PRIDE STUFF NOT THE WOODWORKING CLASS I SIGNED UP FOR (edited)

No pearce they are gonna get the LGBTQ in my RGB lights

i understand that line of thought tho since you didnt read the welcome page

You are saying it is a stretch to suggest that a group that has a Pride Flag avatar at all times is advertising itself as explicitly catering to LGBT interests and not to general interests?

pearce

you honestly think people see a pride logo on the server and thing OH NOES THEY ARE GONNA TEACH ME PRIDE STUFF NOT THE WOODWORKING CLASS I SIGNED UP FOR (edited)

I didn’t say that at all, and yes, I did read the welcome page.

theres nothing in a pride flag that says its exclusively catering to LGBT

8:55 PM

its showing support for the community that is undersupported

1

pearce

theres nothing in a pride flag that says its exclusively catering to LGBT

Respectfully, this is like saying there’s nothing in a cross that exclusively caters to Christians.

8:56 PM

1

8:56 PM

anyways

8:58 PM

as i said earlier I just didnt change it back because I didnt set a timer for june 30 at 11:59 pm to clear the pride logos off stuff like all the corporations do, and you are the first person who was so bothered by it that you wanted to bring it up in the politics channel of all places

I like it regardless.

that said, you arent doing a good job motivating me to take it off

I’ve made my statement. I’m not going to press you if you’ve made up your mind otherwise.

As a gay, i want it to stay

@Aesthetys who even are you?

1

DMS member and Discord lurker.

Who are you on the DMS Talk forum then?

It’s easier to just check Discord

Alright what is your membership name? Since this is an unofficial Discord I have no way of verifying you are in fact a member and not just a troll or a disgruntled previous member (edited)

I have no interest in being verified. Like I said, I expressed my opinion and have no interest in contesting it further if the answer is “no”.

You sure have a lot of opinions about a place you don't seem that involved with as a straight person regardless. If you can't own up to your opinion then it is worthless to the rest of us.

I never stated my sexual orientation, and I never made a single value judgment about a group of people. Nevertheless, you are correct that my opinion is worthless to a group I don’t participate in. I’m happy to leave the discussion at that.

Why do you want the Makerspace to be less supportive to queer people? Does it make it less welcoming to straight white men?

9:25 PM

Are you just one of those people that "just asks questions" to make people think while hiding behind your keyboard as an anonymous person that's going to open our eyes to straight people being marginalized?

I do not hold that opinion.

Please tell me how the flag hurts you as a member of the DMS

1

Nor did I ask DMS to be less supportive of queer people

How does it make you unsafe if a bunch of queers join tomorrow because one organization still had the flag up after June? (edited)

I did not claim that I was being made unsafe.

Would you be unsafe if every member was queer starting tomorrow? (edited)

No I would not.

Ok then what does it matter if people think we are actually a predominately LGBTQ Makerspace?

9:28 PM

What harm does it do the organization when it is obvious there is a logo for a Makerspace?

9:29 PM

Also that is specifically the ALLY flag

9:33 PM

It represents progress and allyship. Meaning that there aren't just LGBTQ people there year around, that people are allies to all walks of life. And in a fucking world where the doors are still not wide open for us and we still have to look for a place that declares itself as an ally before we even think about entering then I'm sick of places taking down their supposed symbol of support in July

Ok, that sounds good then.

Good job stirring the pot and proving my point that the DMS is not a safe place for marginalized communities and that it's all just virtue signaling until a straight white man is expected to be slightly inconvenienced and then we're the problem!

that was very likely their goal

1

Staying out of it, though this month probably SHOULD highlight another marginalized community.

The flag that Pearce used covers People of Color as well. They would see the flag he used and know that they are supported as well.

12:59 AM

Because if we support queer people of color, I bet that means we support the straight ones too.

1:01 AM

I do love when people say they are "staying out of it" and then totally dive right into it.

For my two cents, I think it's ok to use an ally flag for an unofficial channel. Though I think it would be cool to have the logo made in glass, metal, digital media and so on and rotate every month or two

2

doug.emes

Staying out of it, though this month probably SHOULD highlight another marginalized community.

That's an excellent point.

1

as Pearce said, he doesn't have the original image anymore, that's the main reason it's still this one

10:39 AM

he had a hard drive die a while back

10:40 AM

plus this one is animated (edited)

10:41 AM

and cool animated logos are always better than boring static logos

truth

if people with artistic skill (i.e. not me) want to make logos for the server, please do

10:43 AM

it would be nice to have a couple different fun/seasonal ones

1

this is my skill level

See general channel for the svg I created last year that was not used

1

aceat64

this is my skill level

That's how the DMS logo looked before the alcohol ban

3

2

themitch22

That's how the DMS logo looked before the alcohol ban

roflmao

aceat64

this is my skill level

Actually looks fine to me

I guess Mark Havens is still disappointed in DMS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sco6J32Apc

Mark Havens

You Have a Voice! -- A Dallas Makerspace success story steeped in t...

8:51 AM

https://youtu.be/hhfCVMJrRNI?t=594

Mark Havens

Maker Community Matters [S1E1] -- Dallas Makerspace Mission Stateme...

8:52 AM

https://youtu.be/R_yGIyIlwGg

Mark Havens

An adventuring party searches for secrets at Dallas Makerspace! NOT...

Dude why does he still care at this point?

9:27 AM

Also that adventuring party video is beyond cringe. Couldn’t make it more than two minutes in.

9:28 AM

He has turned into such a “pick me b****” #niceguyenergy

2

Not to make fun of people but I think a gear may be loose (or missing). He quickly forgot all the anti-community things he and Her Majesty's BoD did. You do not build community by trolling everyone or stealing from it. If he was so successful at building a Makerspace you would think he could do it again and shape it into what he wanted. Easy to spend your time tearing down something else.

It's best to just ignore him imo

3

cringe

My reaction to pretty much everything Havens

https://dallasmakerspace.org/wiki/Code_of_Conduct_Proposal#Code_of_Conduct_.28full.29

Code of Conduct Proposal

Who are even the people in the video

Other than Gorman, I do not know those people. Constructive criticism is all well and good but just shitting on stuff is a dumb method to invoke any change.

2

1

Focus on solutions, not problems

9:50 AM

"This is a problem" "This doesn't work" Aren't helpful, having defined and actionable solutions is helpful (edited)

9:51 AM

"we should do [general idea]" is a great starting point, but actionable if the key part of a solution

(edited)

Mmm, yeah, may need to promote radical cooperation in 2022. One place I used to work at used to say bring as many "problems" as you want, but be prepared to have at least 3 possible solutions for each.

Permabanned members aren't going to be cooperative on providing solutions that the members would hear. Complaining just to complain is just narcissism

12:19 PM

But I'm not a member right now and have no solutions to give.

Frankly he seems unhinged, don't have any solutions either unfortunately.

Is there a specific video you guys are referring to?

Mark is still aggrieved from losing the first board election. There's no reason to assume he wouldn't keep it going indefinitely. Honestly I don't think it's productive to post his nonsense here.

3

1

Ah ok that video. Nvm

Toenolla

Mark is still aggrieved from losing the first board election. There's no reason to assume he wouldn't keep it going indefinitely. Honestly I don't think it's productive to post his nonsense here.

Yeah, I should have left it in obscurity as that is what it deserves. Just shocked though.

themitch22

Permabanned members aren't going to be cooperative on providing solutions that the members would hear. Complaining just to complain is just narcissism

I mean all I ever asked for was neutral mediation and look where that got me

2:10 PM

this requires that leadership actually be willing to discuss problems in the first place rather than allow them to fester

Or have a 3rd party to discuss problems to avoid conflicts of interest or bias

1

2:32 PM

But what do I know, I haven't been banned for life.

2:33 PM

I just want to see what happens when a lifetime member gets banned for life

you already have

2:35 PM

happened a while back

2:36 PM

lifetime members still have to follow the rules of the space

I'm not sure where the confusion on lifetime memberships being some kind of special status comes from

2:47 PM

it's no different than the yearly pre-paid memberships, except it was a limited time deal to raise funds and was for a longer period of time

lifetime memberships were what ... early 2014?

I don't remember, but they are beyond "I want the rest of my money back" timelines

it's a somewhat relevant question since the org will have amortized them over some period of time, which may have elapsed

it was like 5 years at the average rate

4:20 PM

yeah 5 years at the annual discount rate

4:20 PM

whenever we moved to monetary

Dues are also forfeit on expulsion

I know a few people out here who bought lifetime memberships to Tech Shop, so I think DMS could have done worse.

3

Meet the Candidates is scheduled for 4/14 @ 7pm https://calendar.dallasmakerspace.org/events/view/17994

has someone arranged for a stream?

https://meet.google.com/bqr-uuzg-nzx

Meet

Real-time meetings by Google. Using your browser, share your video, desktop, and presentations with teammates and customers.

7:10 PM

peanut gallery: collective projects are cool, but have a ... mixed ... past at DMS

7:14 PM

many prior Boards ago shut down Brandon's brief tenure of Logistics

peanut gallery: gatekeeping has been an ongoing impediment. one of the most common complaints I see outside of DMS.

7:28 PM

peanut gallery: a member that has 'paused' still has a relationship with the org, thus communications with them would not be unsolicited marketing

aside: think I might have been the first non-board Officer

So far 22 (9.5%) people have voted

Was having breakfast with the mayor of Lewisville and he mentioned that Maryland has a new Makerspace Initiative that is making its way through the legislative process. https://legiscan.com/MD/bill/SB453/2022 & https://mgaleg.maryland.gov/mgawebsite/Legislation/Details/sb0577?ys=2021RS We are trying to schedule a visit with someone running for State Rep to come tour DMS and see if this is something we can get replicated in Texas. He still is on board with the idea of a Makerspace to server Lewisville, Flower Mound and Highland Village.

Maryland SB453 | 2022 | Regular Session

Summary (2022-04-11) Economic Development – Maryland Makerspace Initiative Program [Returned Passed]

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Any final play by play

that'll be a question for @Lampy (Ken Purcell)

5:25 PM

still 35 minutes left though

I thought in person closed at like 7

4/29 3pm In-person voting via paper ballot 4/29 5pm Online Voting & In-person voting ends 4/29 5:30pm Voting Reports/Exports from online system Simply Voting 4/29 6pm tally all votes 4/29 7pm Election Results Announcement & Transfer of Officers

(edited)

aceat64

4/29 3pm In-person voting via paper ballot 4/29 5pm Online Voting & In-person voting ends 4/29 5:30pm Voting Reports/Exports from online system Simply Voting 4/29 6pm tally all votes 4/29 7pm Election Results Announcement & Transfer of Officers

(edited)

When did online start?

on the 14th

Ah ok. I thought it was earlier just wasn't sure based on that schedule

the meeting should be starting soon, there's an online option but it looks like we're waiting on someone at the space to connect. It's just me and Curt so far (edited)

7:06 PM

https://meet.google.com/bdi-itpp-yxm

Meet

Real-time meetings by Google. Using your browser, share your video, desktop, and presentations with teammates and customers.

Congratudolences on the results (edited)

I for one welcome the Jilluminati

Meh. Are there term limits?

Term limits = get burned out

That’s garbage.

10:14 AM

What are we, Russia? Term limits exist for a reason.

Hmmm, we made quorum at 66.7%. Would have been nice to update some bylaws.

I wonder why the CoC stuff didn't get voted for

10:41 AM

Was it the disaster talk thread?

themitch22

Was it the disaster talk thread?

I’ve been traveling for three weeks, what thread??

Guess the thread got deleted. RIP

bylaws can be updated, we just need to start talking about them sooner

themitch22

Was it the disaster talk thread?

probably, there was a ton of FUD about it when it mostly was just a cleanup of our existing rules

NobleGoblin

I’ve been traveling for three weeks, what thread??

there were a couple, you didn't miss anything important though lol

11:14 AM

https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/on-the-suggested-code-of-conduct-changes/88327 https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/board-agenda-item-add-code-of-conduct-rule-changes-to-ballot/88241

11:15 AM

there was also this crazy one: https://talk.dallasmakerspace.org/t/do-we-have-an-extra-400-000/89939

Do we have an extra $400,000?

11:17 AM

there was FUD about the Code of Conduct being "political" and somehow a risk to our non-profit status, something about how it violates Title IX and various other bizarre takes

11:20 AM

the legit concerns were mostly addressed in subsequent drafts, but rational discussion got drowned out by people who probably didn't even read any of the drafts

the CoC was also a rules change, so it doesn't have to be at an annual meeting. the board can and does update the rules all the time

yup, the main idea was to get our horribly confusing rules on behavior cleaned up and try to offload some of this stuff from the board

How would one go about suggesting term limits?

4:09 PM

My idea currently is two consecutive terms and then a two term break.

It would need to be an amendment to the bylaws.

4:23 PM

And then we'd need either 10% of voting members to sign off on it or the BoD. Then it could be voted on by the members, but we'd need at least 2/3 quorum for the vote to count.

I don't really think there's a risk of anyone locking down a board seat indefinitely. One bad year will cause someone to cycle, and there are always new people coming in.

5:25 PM

Also, the pay's bad.

I’m a big fan of not letting a problem manifest if it can be prevented.

7:47 AM

Especially when it comes to power.

I was thinking about term limits

10:22 AM

it's not really something that I see being effective at the space because we have so few people who actually run for board

10:23 AM

we wouldn't have 5 people for the board if we had a 2 term limit this year

10:24 AM

and if we did implement term limits, it would need to be paired with a staggered election cycle for some of the seats. it's nice to have some previous knowledge on the board so there's some carry over of institutional knowledge

1

pearce

we wouldn't have 5 people for the board if we had a 2 term limit this year

counterpoint: sometimes, out of necessity, springs innovation. If we NEEDED more candidates, more might present.

that's true

I do like the idea of staggered terms

it's the only reason I ran, I didn't see enough people on the ballot

4

and I do like the idea of term limits, but I really want the voting membership to self-impose, rather than rules/bylaws

thankfully I didn't get foisted on there

10:25 AM

I would rather see limits on the number of hats a person can wear at a time

10:25 AM

before term limits

pearce

thankfully I didn't get foisted on there

pearce

I would rather see limits on the number of hats a person can wear at a time

stuff like, board members can't be officers, or chairs. officers shouldn't be chairs, chairs shouldn't have more than one seat at a time

3

10:27 AM

it would create a vacancy, but those spots would get filled if people were unable to continue using the space without them

if there's no one willing to run a committee that's a good sign that it's resources are underutilized, or that something is wrong with the structure of it

aceat64

if there's no one willing to run a committee that's a good sign that it's resources are underutilized, or that something is wrong with the structure of it

that's not my interpretation of that situation, at least, not 100%

technically if no one is willing to run the committee is supposed to be dissolved

we shit on chairs, and joke about crappy it is to serve instead of working to elevate those who do. This is a leadership issue moreso, is my interpretation. But then again, what do I know.

1

theres also a lot that people don't know about being a chair

10:32 AM

and we don't hold them accountable for the things that need to get done

10:32 AM

which makes others have to do it. the board

pearce

which makes others have to do it. the board

hm. by design, it should be the membership that "has to do it"

right but we don't hold the chairs accountable

but often the Board gets the impression they must (and often, do)

pearce

right but we don't hold the chairs accountable

Right. But if board members z, y, x, w, v all noticed that Frank the Tank was doing all of the work they expected Pearce to be doing in glassworks, they could turn that over. Instead, they step in and do the work, and Frank the Tank thinks "oh, good, someone else is doing that".

10:34 AM

meh

10:35 AM

probably chicken vs. egg there

10:35 AM

Time for me to mosey on. Thanks for listening.

Being an entirely volunteer run organization has it's downsides. You can't really voluntell anyone to do anything.

we're also not great about letting people know how they can help or allowing them to

2

1

That’s prob my fav part of it all

I think that tends to happen in orgs this big. It’s the bystander effect to a degree. Unless someone is designated specifically, everyone will twiddle their thumbs and wait for someone else to do it. And people might be hesitant to help because they don’t know if they are allowed and they don’t want to step on toes.

1

and then there's when someone is designated, plans are made, stuff bought...and then someone else does it the day before the scheduled plans. Kind of kills the drive to make any plans, buy any stuff, DO anything "next time". Just as demoralizing as making plans, buying stuff, and having no one show up who said they would.

7:03 PM

but hey, doing your own thing on your own time with your own stuff without worrying about anything anyone else has/does/planned/bought/brought/needs/wants...

that does make it easy

7:07 PM

but contributes to burnout

7:07 PM

having scheduled days to do stuff is nice too

3

you either need a volunteer volunteer coordinator or financial incentives to organize volunteers.

both have been offered over the last ~4yrs. Neither particularly fruitful.

‍♂️

Good topic… thanks for discussion… I captured some ideas for upcoming communication improvements

1

financial incentives to organize volunteers.

Been there, ended up tossing that person for regularly buying their buddies lunch

ESmith

financial incentives to organize volunteers.

Been there, ended up tossing that person for regularly buying their buddies lunch

A. Spencer(jast)

both have been offered over the last ~4yrs. Neither particularly fruitful.

‍♂️

Laser's DIY potluck worked well for our monthly one hour meeting + maintenance day.

1

stephenie

Laser's DIY potluck worked well for our monthly one hour meeting + maintenance day.

which was neither financial incentivized volunteer coordinator, nor volunteer volunteer coordinator, led, but instead was driven by volunteer committee chair & volunteer assistants leading. This has, to date, been the most successful model @ DMS (to my knowledge).

You're right, it was one "level" down in hierarchy. Let's also give credit to @LukeStrickland who used pizza to incentivize Logistics volunteers - volunteers all threw in a few bucks, someone picked up pizza. My then-teen son LOVED Logistics Pizza Day. He met so many people, made Space friends.

3

2

A. Spencer(jast)

which was neither financial incentivized volunteer coordinator, nor volunteer volunteer coordinator, led, but instead was driven by volunteer committee chair & volunteer assistants leading. This has, to date, been the most successful model @ DMS (to my knowledge).

I had hoped that the DIY potluck + maintenance day would catch on with other committees.

stephenie

I had hoped that the DIY potluck + maintenance day would catch on with other committees.

It may still do, if anyone picks up the mantel & demonstrates its efficacy again... COVID didn't help any of that type of activity, but we are (

) on the other side of that being viable, again...

1:06 PM

want to see office hours picked up & spread again, too. another great idea!

I loved Laser Office Hours!!! It didn't turn out like I thought it would. I thought I'd be helping people become more comfortable with the machines. Instead, almost all issues were with design + Inkscape. Like much of volunteering, I gained as much or more than i gave. Interacting with so many different designs and different issues really boosted my skills.

1:09 PM

I wish we taught the following to new members:

1:09 PM

1. The biggest project you will make here is The Space itself.

1:10 PM

and that is not an optional project.

3

1:12 PM

2. "You are automatically a member of the Logistics committee. Not optional. Here's where the trash bags are. Here's where the mops are. Here's where the toilet paper is. Let's take out a bag of trash. You are required to participate in one Logistics workday (per whatever)."

1:13 PM

Make so that you can't sign up for a class until you've attended a Logistics workday.

stephenie

2. "You are automatically a member of the Logistics committee. Not optional. Here's where the trash bags are. Here's where the mops are. Here's where the toilet paper is. Let's take out a bag of trash. You are required to participate in one Logistics workday (per whatever)."

TBH even though I've been their like 9 months now... I still don't even know where half the maintenance stuff is :/ Kinda wish that was a mandatory introductory thing

On the west wall of the common room there is a supplies closet with trash bags, toilet paper etc. Other 'maintenance' stuff is in each committees area somewhere

Is there a sign on the common room supplies closet?

kinda

Ion Snowie (D4rk)

TBH even though I've been their like 9 months now... I still don't even know where half the maintenance stuff is :/ Kinda wish that was a mandatory introductory thing

All depends on who helps you set up your badge. If it’s me, I point to the supply closet in common room and tell them to make sure their badge works. When they open it up, “Now when you make a mess you know where stuff is to clean it up. Have fun, don’t burn the place down. “

5

FYI I was re-elected President of thelab.ms and we approved new bylaws. ||https://kb.thelab.ms/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=31268113||. Congrats to the my new BoD and continue to look forward to our friendship with DMS (edited)

10

1

when are the political prisoners being rounded up?

7

Hey y'all would we be okay leaving 5 cars on the side of the MakerSpace for a day and a half? We have some people going out of town to shoot a video. They are looking for a place they won't get towed.

ChadPursley

Hey y'all would we be okay leaving 5 cars on the side of the MakerSpace for a day and a half? We have some people going out of town to shoot a video. They are looking for a place they won't get towed.

this is def not the place to ask for permission like that.

4:47 PM

also the lease says no

4:47 PM

youd want to email admin@dallasmakerspace.org

If the lease says no, then we won’t do it. Thanks.

Unfortunately. He is correct. The lease does not allow for that

1

Thank you both!

Getting close to time for new political prisoners.

1

doug.emes

FYI I was re-elected President of thelab.ms and we approved new bylaws. ||https://kb.thelab.ms/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=31268113||. Congrats to the my new BoD and continue to look forward to our friendship with DMS (edited)

TheLab.ms held our annual elections, and I am no longer president, having met the limit of 3 consecutive terms. I was elected to Vice-president. Mr. Tim Rayburn is the newly elected president for that makerspace. Maybe now I can start working on some of my own projects

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4